Sport Governance Principles - The Startline

This is a Sport Australia podcast production. Hello and welcome to the Sport Governance Podcast series. My name is Kate Corkery and I'm the director of Sport Governance and Strategy at Sport Australia.

Over this series, we will take a deep dive into the sport governance principles and how they come to life in practice. Each podcast will focus on an individual principle with a special guest joining me to share their experiences and practical advice with respect to that principle.

Today, we're at the Start line and I'm joined by Peggy O'Neal. Peggy is the first woman in AFL history to serve as club president since 2013, she has been the president of Richmond Football Club, overseeing their premiership wins in 2017 and 2019. The Australian Financial Review has named her in its list of top 100 women of influence. And in 2019 she was awarded an Officer of the Order of Australia for distinguished service to Australian rules football, to superannuation and finance law and the advancement of women in leadership roles. Hello Peggy and welcome to our Sport Governance Podcast series.

Thank you, Kate.

We are at the start line and stepping into the boardroom for the first time can be just as daunting as stepping onto the field or court for the first time. What initial advice would you offer someone who wanted to be on a sport board?

Well, I think the first thing is to understand a bit about the team you're joining is what is your interest in joining that sport board? Is it because you played that sport? You have a keen interest in it. But I think the first item is to understand how it operates, and that's usually finding what its documents are. It's Constitution. Who's on the current board? Who's the chair of that board? Just so you get an idea about how that board operates. I think that you'll also probably need to do a bit of maybe self-reflection on what skills you bring to that board or how you think you might make a contribution. And many boards these days have a skills matrix and they sort of identify the kinds of skills that need around the board table. And you might want to say, well, do I have one of those? So I think it needs, I think anyone should think serious about joining a board because we need a diversity of views, we need a diversity of life experiences. But I think you need to educate yourself and not just jump at a board because you think it would be an interesting exercise. I think that you need to find a board that's going to allow you to contribute to your best. And then once you've found that board and you become a director, I think the next thing is to get a really thorough induction on how that board operates, how the organisation operates. And most organisations are pretty good about those these days. It used to be kind of rare, you were sort of thrown in at the deep end and you get along, ask any questions. And you and I know myself, I was thinking, well, I don't know what questions to ask because I don't know what I don't know. So I think a bit of self-reflection. Give it a go. Educate yourself on what the board is about and then get a thorough induction - Is the beginning part. But it's certainly not the end.

So when we talk about governance, what is good governance?

Well, good governance is what we're trying to achieve. But when you think about what governance is itself, I always think that it's about accountability and about each person understanding the role that they're to play and then executing that role well. It's sort of it's a system of checks and balances that ultimately improves decision making. So I've often thought that governance and culture are often talked about as separate things, but I've often thought of governance and culture really going hand-in-hand. I think both of them are examples of the way things are done around an organisation. And boards are there to keep the organisation on course, to help define a strategy and then management is there to be the day to day arms and legs who get things done. So I think that it's understanding what's my job, ensuring that good decision making happens and is in fact setting up a few rules of the game.

In terms of sport governance, is it different from corporate governance in your experience?

Well, I think that governance, the accountability part really applies across both and the role of what a board plays, and what the CEO plays and what the management team plays is it's sort of identical. I think that sporting organisations perhaps have often a bit more of a problem in understanding that the board is there to oversee and to govern and that management is there to “do” so getting people to sort of ‘stay in their lane’ on sporting boards can be a real well, a constant sort of concern. And because you want the board to understand its job, and that's why it's important in understanding the governance principles, I think, is that the role of the board is different than the role of management. And sporting organisations often have trouble identifying those two roles.

And what happens or what is the impact of directors wanting to run the high performance programme or pick the teams?

Well, that isn't their role as one of the problems. And then it becomes kind of blurry about, well, who is it? Who's in charge of that now?  And I think that boards have to get used to the idea that they are not there to ‘do’ ideally and that you hire — I'm always sort of amazed to hire the best high performance people, you hire your best coach, you have your best CEO, and then someone on the board that has had no experience in any of those things or very little or isn't a professional — decides that they know better. And so I think that if I were in a management team with highly credentialed and someone on the board was trying to tell me how to do my job, I would think that's not the place for me. And I'll go somewhere where I can apply myself and my skills and my expertise in the way that is appropriate, as opposed to being overridden by someone who, for most part doesn't know what they're doing in this particular sphere. I think we all have a role to play in understanding your role as a part of that good governance.

And so that sort of highlights the relationship between the CEO and the chair in your time at Richmond Football Club. How has your relationship with the CEO, Brendan (Gale) changed or developed? And how important is that relationship?

Well, I had been on the board at Richmond for eight years before I became president and I was on the committee in 2009 when Brendan was hired. So I knew the kind of person that he was. And I had seen him in action for three years before I became president. But I see my relationship from being one of a director who saw him on occasion to, when you become the president or the chair of the board, you are in effect, are sort of a liaison between the board and the management team. And the CEO represents a management team. And I represent the board. And you do a lot of work behind the scenes before the board gets papers necessarily on it. And you help sort of guide the management team -through the CEO - on ideas they may be exploring or things sometimes happen between meetings that there's no time to call a meeting. Is this something the whole board has to be involved in?

So it's evolved, I suppose, in that we have to work pretty closely together. We developed a bond of trust, I believe, and that allows us to get on with the job because we do believe that each of us is doing what they're supposed to do. And we have delegations so that we don't step across the line and step on each other's toes. And often in sport, especially in Australian Rules Football that I'm involved in, people mistakenly think that the president runs the club. And you'll say lots of times the president's called on to speak in a way that the chairman of the board of a listed company, even in Australia, wouldn't be. So I always think, but we have a CEO and a management team that does that. And they're there every day. And I'm not and they're professionals on this and I'm not. So it's sort of an education piece for the public, too, that the CEO or whatever they might be called in different sporting organisations are the ones who have the day to day management. And the board, if it does its job, helps set the direction and is there for guidance, but is not there to pick the team.

So when we talk about the governance team, the role of the CEO, you've really highlighted how important that is. And then you've got your individual directors who are elected or appointed to serve on the board, and then those individual directors with their diverse backgrounds and experience come together to form a group. How important is unity in its decision making and operations?

Well, it's very important. So when we say ‘unity’, I don't mean that everybody has to agree all the time. What I mean is the understanding that a board doesn't have an individual voice. A board only operates as a committee. And I've often said that if you don't like being on committees, you wouldn't like being on a board, because once the decision is made, the director’s job is to say, I may not have voted for that decision, but I can support it. And the unity is that the public face is ‘this is decision’ the collective has made and ‘I’ as an individual, doesn't matter now.

And if you're at the point as a director that you cannot support that decision in any way, you need to know at what point you would say, I'll leave the board. So unity is important because it is presenting to your stakeholders the decision of the collective. And if you have someone who is the naysayer or who doesn't really give credibility to the decision because they think they know better or they think that we've made the wrong decision and they can't support it, then they are really undermining what the board is trying to do. And the stakeholders might start to think, well, who's running the place there? And of course, the media always likes to have story about dissension amongst board members. So I think unity is important in saying that this is a decision has been made and I can stand behind it, even if it wasn't my preferred decision. And I think if you take time, get the information in that you need to allow everyone time to make a decision that unity comes sort of naturally after that. If you rush people or if the president or chair comes in with a decision that's in effect almost been made outside meeting, it's really, I think, difficult to build trust in that way. So I think unity comes from trust amongst your fellow directors and trust with management team.

And one of the comments that you made related to trust in related to governance and culture, you see that is the same or very similar. How can boards build and role model, a positive culture for their members and for their sport?

Well, I think that the board is really watched in a way that most directors would be surprised. And I often think that a board is the chance to be the ultimate role model. And sometimes it may not be that members in your organisation know who those board members are. But the management team will know who those board members are. And if, for example, you have your purpose or your values that are expressed. And board members don't model those values, then it becomes permitted for no one to really think those values matter. If the board who set those terms act in a way that's inappropriate.

And for example, we've often talked at Richmond about the way you treat people, even waiters in a function, tells people how you respect people, how you respect each other, how you behave toward other people. And so there's little signals are always there. So I think you're not there showcasing those values every day. But when you have an opportunity, it's important that you do so. So I think that the board's very important in setting the tone and telling management whether they believe in what they’ve said their purpose is or not.

Fantastic. Peggy, thank you so much for joining us on our Support Governance Podcast series. Our next podcast is going to pick up Principle 1 — the spirit of the game, values driven culture and behaviours.

Thank you for joining me today. If you'd like to access a copy of the Sport Governance Principles, you will find them at the SportAUS website - SportAUS dot Gov dot AU forward slash Governance. If you have any feedback or questions, please email us at sportsgovernance@sportaus.gov.au. My name is Kate Corkery and I look forward to you joining me for the next podcast in the Sport Governance Series.

Sport Governance Principles - The Spirit of the Game

This is a Sport Australia podcast production.

Hello and welcome to the Sport Governance Podcast series. My name is Kate Corkery and I am the director of Sport Governance and Strategy at Sport Australia.

Over this series, we will take a deep dive into the sport governance principles and how they come to life in practice. Each podcast will focus on an individual principle with a special guest joining me to share their experiences and practical advice with respect to that principle.

In today's episode, we are focusing on Principle One - the spirit of the game — values, driven culture and behaviour.

This principle highlights that an organisation's culture and behaviours should be underpinned by values which are demonstrated by the board and embedded in decisions and actions of the board, its directors, members and the senior executive. Joining me today to talk about the spirit of the game is Petria Thomas, a superstar of the pool during her career, Petria won three Olympic gold medals, three world championships, nine Commonwealth Games gold medals, 13 Australian championships and three Pan-Pacific gold medals. Petria has been appointed as the Commonwealth Games team chef de mission for Birmingham, following three games as athlete services manager and her Gold Coast role as general manager of team services. Petria has also led the Australian team at three editions of the Commonwealth Youth Games. Well-known to issues of culture and behaviour. Thank you for joining me today, Petria.

Thank you. Pleasure to be here.

Culture can be a challenging subject for sporting organisations due to its abstract nature. How would you define or describe culture?

I think culture is really the accepted behaviour and the standards that the organisation has, it is a hard one to define, but generally it is about what people expect. That level of behaviour that I suppose is acceptable to everyone and is acceptable in today's society.

In terms of your career and your time in the pool. Did you have experiences of positive culture or negative culture?

Oh, yeah, definitely. I think, you know, all of us throughout our lives have experienced both positive and negative culture in various circumstances that we've been in. And definitely, you know, as an athlete, I had that experience as well, both positive and negative culture. Thankfully for me, it was more positive during the time I was involved in swimming. You know, all in all, I had a great experience as a member of the Australian swim team.

And in terms of the impact of positive culture, how does that change your engagement in performance as an athlete?

Obviously, if it's a positive culture, people feel comfortable. And I think, you know, when you can feel comfortable in your environment is when you're going to get the best out of yourself, no matter whether you're an athlete or a staff member or whatever it might be. So it is really important as you say, it's quite an abstract idea culture, and it's really hard to define. But I think it is really important that, you know, people feel like they're safe and in an environment where they can speak up if they do see things that are not acceptable.

Yes, speaking up is a challenge as culture becomes negative and arguably at times toxic. Were you able to ever call out behaviour or did you need to call out behaviour?

Not so much when I was an athlete, as I said, there was a fairly positive culture when I was involved in the sport of swimming. But certainly as I've gotten older and as I've grown to understand more of what culture is about and what's acceptable and unacceptable there have been times in my professional working career that I have actually spoken up and it's not easy to speak up, but I think it's really important when you see things that don't sit right with you to call them out. Because, you know, I've often heard of the saying, “the behaviour you walk past is the behaviour you accept”.

And certainly the role of governance and the leaders in the organisation, whether they be the board or the CEO, have a significant role in establishing and role-modelling good values and behaviours. In terms of defining or determining values and behaviours, how important is the process of defining them and consulting values?

I think, yeah, it's really obviously critical that from an organisational perspective, that the organisation has a strong and sound set of values and which leads obviously then to the culture within the organisation, both for its staff and its members. The consultation on that process is really important because, you know, I think when the top down just sort of says, oh, these are our values and this is our culture, you need that ‘buy-in’. And I think you can only get that ’buy-in’ when you've had a strong consultation process. And it is a tough process, I think, because obviously members and staff will come from a diverse perspective. But I think it's important to capture those perspectives as best you can when you get that ‘buy-in’ and I think is when you can really establish a good, strong culture where it is okay to speak up when things aren't necessarily going as they should be.

And in terms of the role of the board in establishing and role modelling values and behaviour in your many roles in sport as athlete, senior administrator, team manager, what is the role of the board in terms of values and organisational culture?

Well, I think obviously the board is the peak of the organisation there. They're the ones making the decisions about the direction of the organisation. And I think it's really critical that, you know, they obviously are role modelling the behaviours that they want the members and the staff to portray. I think I suppose in my experience, it's quite often that you actually don't see the board very often though, except for maybe you know like presentations and special events and things like that. So I think the visibility is something that could be really improved because, you know, you quite often, you know, when you're an athlete or even as a staff member, sometimes the board can be a little bit faceless, to be honest, because you don't see them and you don't hear often about the work that they're doing and things. So I think that visibility could really be improved to show or highlight that they are role modelling those behaviours that they want and the culture that they expect of the organisation.

You have a bit of challenge coming up in 2022 with the Birmingham Commonwealth Games, establishing values in a Commonwealth Games team where you've got athletes and individuals coming from a raft of sports with different values, how do you do that?

It's really tough, actually. I’ve been on a number of multi-sport teams now with the Commonwealth Games, and it's really challenging to bring together 700 plus people from, you know, I think 19 or 20 sports that all have their own subcultures and own standards and things. It's hard to bring all those people together, expect them to gel and feel like they're part of something bigger. It is really challenging, but I think the approach I've taken to it in the past is just to treat people how you like to be treated yourself. And when you pass an Australian person during a games with the same uniform on as yourself, just lift your head and say hello or sit down next to them in the dining hall and share a meal with them and ask them how their day was. So I think they're the sort of basic approaches that that I'd like to see our Australian team members, certainly for Birmingham in 2022 to take. But it is really hard to bring such a broad group of people together and feel like there's something like something bigger going on than just their normal sport.

And your experience at the Gold Coast with the team there? Did the team gel and connect in a really positive culture at a Gold Coast in 2018?

Yeah, we actually had some really positive feedback through our survey process that we did after the games and I think whilst we can always do better, I think we actually did pretty well on the Gold Coast and people were sort of reported feeling valued and had a good experience. And I mean, on a games team, I mean, there are two primary goals for us, for Birmingham, as they were, on the Gold Coast, is for people to be able to come onto the team and we provide them with the environment where they can perform at their best. Both athletes, coaches, administrators, everyone - everyone on the team has to perform to get the result. And then also it's really critically important that they have a good experience and that they feel part of something that's just, that is bigger than what they normally do in that multi-sport environment. So, yeah, so we did quite well on the Gold Coast, but obviously still looking for improvement and hopefully in Birmingham we can have both a great team performance and great team experience for everyone. And that's part of it.

When we talk about governance generally, we tend to talk about policies and processes or systems or we tend to get focused on the box ticking and on the theory of it, this culture based principle, does it give us a way to look at governance in a different way to bring it to life?

I think it's hard. It's a pretty dry sort of topic area, unfortunately. And I in my daily work environment, I deal with processes and policies and athlete agreements and all that sort of stuff. So it is tough. And I think as an athlete, you sort of just, it's almost like they're just things that you have to do. I don't think we probably spend enough time on educating athletes about why all these things have to be in place. And it's both to protect them as participants in the sport and also to protect the organisation as well. But I think it is, it is a pretty dry topic area, but we all know that those things are there for well, the administrators certainly know that those policies and processes, are there for a really important reason, and that's to provide structure and protection for both participants and the organisation itself.

Excellent. Thank you for your very interesting insights on this important topic today and for joining us here on our podcast series. Thank you, my pleasure. Thanks for having me.

Thank you for joining me today. If you'd like to access a copy of the sport governance principles, you'll find them at the sports website. SportAUS.gov.au/governance. If you have any feedback or questions, please email us at sportsgovernance@ausport.gov.au. My name is Kate Corkery and I look forward to you joining me for the next podcast in the Sport Governance Series.

Sport Governance Principles - The Team

This is a Sport Australia podcast production.

Sport Governance Principles - The Game Plan

This is a Sport Australia podcast production.

Kate Corkery Hello and welcome to Sport Governance podcast series. My name is Kate Corkery and I am the Director of Sport Governance and Strategy at Sport Australia. Over this series we will take a deep dive into the Sport Governance Principles and how they come to life in practice.  Each podcast will focus on an individual Principle with a special guest joining me to share their experiences and practical advice with respect to that Principle.

Kate Corkery In today's episode, we're focusing on principle three - The Game Plan, a clear vision that informs strategy. Principle three highlights that the board is responsible for overseeing the organisation's vision and strategy, as well as determining what success looks like. To discuss the Game Plan, we are privileged to be joined by Rob Scott, Chair of Rowing Australia and Managing Director and Chief Executive of Wesfarmers. Rob holds a master of applied finance degree from Macquarie University and a Bachelor of Commerce degree from the Australian National University. He has a graduate diploma in Applied Finance and Investments and is a qualified Chartered Accountant. He is a dual Olympian in rowing and a silver medallist from the 1996 Atlanta Olympics, as well as Chair of Rowing Australia, he is a member of the University of Western Australia's Business School Advisory Board. Rob is a past President and Director of the Insurance Council of Australia. Rob, thank you for joining me to discuss the Game Plan.

Rob Scott Thanks, Kate.

Kate Corkery This Principle starts with vision and purpose and then sharpens focus on the role of strategy in connecting the object's purpose and vision of an organisation. How important is a national sporting organisations vision in so far as its capacity to unite all sections of a sport beyond the NSO itself?

Rob Scott Well, look, I think it's really important. The reality is that the health and sustainability of a sport is dependent on vibrancy in all areas. And I guess if you think about a lot of NSOs often the focus might have been very much at the high performance level. Certainly a sport like rowing historically has been like that. But the reality is that for us to be successful in the high performance area, we need to have a really strong base. We need to be strong and relevant at a grass roots level. We need to engage all areas of the sport to be successful. And I think that's increasingly important as sports continue to promote their relevance in the Olympic Games, for example. You need to show that your participation rates, your engagement is relevant so for us, this has been really important. One of the lessons for us as a sport, if I go back about five or six years ago, there was this sense that we were a very Canberra centric organisation. The team was based in Canberra, predominantly focused on the high performance aspects of the sport. Some in our sport referred to Rowing Australia as "Fortress Canberra". So we've tried to make a real effort in recent years to engage more deeply across the states, across the country, to really tap into a lot of the fantastic and passionate people that we have in the sport of rowing.

Kate Corkery Indeed and the vision itself has that discussion and has that hard look at "Fortress Canberra", and the perception within the sport that it was very centralised to Canbera, by having a hard look at that reflection and that perception, were you able to harness and sharpen the vision to be more broadly focused on rowing nationally?

Rob Scott Well, it's interesting. We spent a bit of time really reflecting on what is it that binds us all together? What is the common vision or purpose? And if you think about the different participants in our sport, you've got people in the national team, you've got veteran rowers, masters rowers, you've got school rowers, you've got volunteers, you've got people involved in community rowing. So what is it that binds us all together? We were really fortunate that one of our alumni just happens to be the CEO of an international advertising and brand agency. So we tapped into Marty O'Halloran's expertise from DDB Worldwide and he came up with this phenomenal piece of work following really detailed stakeholder interviews. It really kind of came back to this sense of what brings us all together in the sport of rowing is this common theme around excellence, always striving to be better at what we do, no matter whether we are a school rower, a veteran rower or an Olympic rower, and really bringing together some of the imagery and the aspects of our sport that bring us all together and make us all very passionate about it. So that was a really powerful way for us to, I guess, unify the purpose and bring people together in the sport of rowing.

Kate Corkery So spring boarding off that concept of excellence within an environment such as sport, which has really limited resources. How significant is it to ensure that all parts of the sport have aligned strategic plans?

Rob Scott Well, yeah, look very important. I think there's various reasons why it's important, I'd say first of all given that we have limited resources, if we are aligned and leveraging capabilities, then we can reduce costs. So there's a lot of administrative aspects that we're all subject to that through better streamlining and alignment we can just simply save money, save cost and then invest that money into more value adding things. The other reason why it's so important to be aligned is that a lot of sports rely very heavily on volunteers, very heavily on the discretionary effort of many people, including the board of directors, I guess, given that we're not in paid roles. So the more that we can have alignment, then the more we can be working together and mobilising and inspiring that discretionary effort of volunteers. So that's really important. Look, I think another another really important thing to remember is that there's a lot of passion and a lot of emotion in sport. That can be a really powerful part of the success of sport if you can tap into that passion and emotion. But sometimes that passion and emotion can not be constructive, particularly if it is around individuals trying to preserve vested interests or personal perspectives. So that's why it's really important as a sport that we really face into what are we trying to achieve as a sport and then put in place the settings to ensure that we're giving people the tools they need to be successful but we're all ultimately working together for a common goal.

Kate Corkery Indeed. And you've really highlighted there the incredible efforts of volunteers at all levels of sport and the opportunity we've got across national and state levels in sport to bring to life the vision. How can a sport develop a strategic plan that does engage those volunteers, that does engage and leverage the states and the NSO to ensure that they are aligned to the organisation's strategy?

Rob Scott Well, I think you touch on an important point and that's within all sports it's really important that we recognise the very distinct roles and responsibilities of the national body, state bodies and in different sports club, club entities. The reality is that most national sports organisations simply don't have the capacity, nor are they well equipped to really manage a lot of the 'on the ground' issues at a state level. So if I take a sport like rowing, we rely very heavily on our state associations to do things such as manage local rowing regattas. To do that effectively, they need to engage with local councils and authorities. They need to mobilise the volunteer base at a local level. So I think what's really important when you go about setting your strategy, setting your strategic plan as a sport is to acknowledge those differences because although alignment and in some cases centralisation can be positives for sport, they can also be distinct negatives. Sometimes sports try and centralise too much power in the central unit and then lose sight of the fact that the people that bring the sport to life on the ground are actually located out in the regions. So I think being really clear about what roles and responsibilities are and then stepping back and thinking about as a national body, how can we provide the governance, the tools, the support, the facilities to help our states and our clubs be successful? How can we give our states and clubs a sense of empowerment, that they have a sense of accountability to make things happen on the ground? And that is just so critically important, because I think to really engage and mobilise volunteers, you need to make sure that you're doing that in local areas where you can be very connected and hands on with those groups of people.

Kate Corkery And what's the role of the Board in embedding and communicating the organisation's vision and strategy across the sport and down to that grassroots level? And do you have any examples of where you've seen this done really well?

Rob Scott Well, I guess when I think about strategy and vision, I'd say the role of the Board is very much to help set the strategy and then monitor the implementation of strategy. I think you need to be realistic as a board of directors in terms of how much of a role can you have in communicating and embedding strategy? So in many ways, the boards rely on management to to embed strategy and communicate strategy. So that means that boards need to make sure they, number 1  have the right management team in place. So the decisions they make about the leadership of the sport are critically important. But then make sure they have the right monitoring systems in place to monitor how how well things are going. I guess at a board level, there is still a still the role of a board to be connected and visible. And that does go to communicating and embedding strategy. One area that we're focussed on is to try and make sure that our board is representative of the different areas of our sport, the different regions of our sport, so that we have a board that is by definition more connected with the sport. We've also tried to make sure that this was pre covered. We're looking forward to bringing it back, that getting our board out into the regions, out into the states, so that we move around the board meetings and after board meetings, organised sessions where we bring people in from the from the state or the regions to spend time with the board so we can hear directly with them. So those things, I think, are really important ways for the board to communicate and embed strategy. But ultimately, we rely very heavily on management and that means we need to have good processes in place to monitor how management are going so that the question of monitoring is a really interesting one and I guess one that boards to do struggle with it.

Kate Corkery So you go through the post process of consulting and developing the strategy and within it the sort of objectives. How do you set up the performance measures that the board is clear about what it's going to be measuring and who's accountable for that?

Rob Scott Yes, it looks another very good question. And I'd say I think in rowing, we're still on the journey to try and get that set up the right way. You know, we're working through a strategic planning process at the moment. And this year, we've agreed as a board and with the management team that we're going to pay far more attention to once we set the whole sport of plan we want the management team to come back to us with a very clear plan around how the organisational structure, the leadership roles are set up to deliver on that plan and also face into the realities of resourcing. We have limited resourcing. We want to do a lot of things. So being realistic about whether we have a resourcing plan to support the strategy that we want to deliver. So I'd say it's very much a work in progress within our sport. I guess the other observation I've taken from business is sometimes if you let consultants take over your planning process, you end up with about 50 KPIs that you're really focused on in terms of managing the effectiveness of the delivery of your plan. Sometimes I think you can go overboard with the granularity that you measure those outcomes. I think it's really important as a board to step back and ask yourself what are the handful of outcomes? What are the what are the small number of things that we really need to pay close attention to that are really going to drive or determine the success of our plan? And I guess in that regard, I'd say there's the 'what' and the 'how'. The 'what' might be well, what do we want to achieve? We want to win gold medals at the Olympics. We want to increase the participation levels in our sport. We want to increase non-government funding sources. Like those are pretty easy things to measure but the things that we're spending more time thinking about is the 'how'. And that is how we're going about building up a more sustainable future for our sport. So it's all very well to win medals at the Olympic Games but how are we going with developing out the pipeline to future champions? What are we doing to ensure that we're building a high performance system that is long term and sustainable? So are we are we focusing enough effort on the other parts of our athletes lives that are going to be critical if we are going to keep them engaged in the sport for longer? So I think we still have some work to do on measuring the how. And I guess these are, I think, the lead indicators that are all about long term sustainable success in the sport rather than some of the short term measures, such as medals at the Olympics, commercial funding of participation, which are easier to measure.

Kate Corkery So if if you're talking about the 'what' and the board is then looking at its decisions, which really create a lot of the 'how', how can a board ensure that its decisions and the operations of the organisation are aligned to that strategy? And what are the risks if the board starts making decisions that aren't aligned to the strategy?

Rob Scott Yeah, well, look, I think it's important as a board to have really good feedback loops in place. The reality is that as a board, despite your best efforts, you don't have real time visibility of everything happening. So you need to make sure that you have an organisational culture that is very open such that and I know the way that we describe it in our company and it's the same as how we talk about it in rowing, that an open culture is one where bad news travels faster than good news. So we want to if there is a problem, if there's a problem lurking around, then we want to hear about it immediately. Once an issue or a problem has been identified, then we can all work on it together rather than these problems lingering and festering and then becoming bigger and bigger problems. So, look, often when you step back and think about the effectiveness of the organisation, your effectiveness at delivering on the strategy, you need to recognise that not everything's going to work all the time. So it's really having good feedback systems in place that you identify when issues are arising and then it lets you diagnose. The problem is, is there a problem because there's misalignment in objectives? Is there a problem because there's a lack of resources? Are there other problems that are arising? And really, you just need to be very open and transparent about that. So having those feedback mechanisms in place are important, having really and it does come back to monitoring strategic plans, and that is the responsibility of the board, it is having really good reporting and good reporting doesn't mean the loss of reporting. It means really clear and coherent reporting that gets to the heart of the issues. So some of the things that we always look at, which I think once again, are lead indicators on how well the organisation's going is some of the personnel cultural measures within the organisation, what's happening with turnover, what's happening with absenteeism, what's happening with safety, what they're always good measures, the financial discipline within the organisation. How we tracking around following up on action items that have been identified through the board meetings? You just need to make sure you keep on top of these issues and if you've got those good reporting mechanisms in place, it lets you identify when things start to go off the rails.

Kate Corkery So you've really touched on there are a lot of issues around the organisational culture, and that's a key theme that modern good governance is anchoring into more than ever before and it comes up quite repetitively in the Sports Governance Principles. What is the impact that a strong strategy or an aligned strategy across a sport can have on the sports culture?

Rob Scott Well, look I think it's absolutely critical and I think at the end of the day, at the end of the day, as a board, as I said earlier, you need to be realistic about what the board's role is with respect to culture. You know, I do believe that boards have a very important role to play. It is very much, I think about setting the expectations of the organisation. It is monitoring progress to ensure that we are delivering the outcomes in a way that are consistent with the culture we want to live. But we need to also recognise who really embeds and brings the culture to life. Well, it's not the board that meets six to eight times a year. It is the management. It is the athletes. It is the broader participants within the sport. So I think that is really important. So then just comes back to, have we have we set a vision for the sport that aligns everyone that, you know. Is that authentic? Is it meaningful? Have we tackled into the issues where there are roadblocks or tension points within the sport? And look, there are always tension points within all organisations that I think the way you face into those are really important around culture. The way that you act when things don't go go right or you go well, I think is really, really important for organisational culture. So, I think what if I kind of reflect back on my time with the Rowing Australia board I'd say one of the key things that we can do as a board is that when issues aren't when something's going wrong, then face into it really quickly and communicate effectively, bring people together. Don't allow the Chinese whispers to occur really just try and bring people together and have a more open discussion about the issues. I think that's one of my learnings within within sport. And I think it's it's certainly equally relevant in most organisations.

Kate Corkery Excellent advice. Thank you for that. So if there's directors listening to our discussion thinking I don't know where to start with strategy where do I begin? Where do I look? Do you have any advice on that?

Rob Scott Well, look, I think there are lots of different approaches to strategy development, and I won't necessarily go through all of those but I think initially just starting often and trying to be clear about what you're trying to achieve as a sport. Something that we have found really powerful in in our organisation is to just keep reminding ourself that our reason for being, as a sport, is for the participants in our sport. So really focusing in on the rower, the athlete. We are not here as a sporting organisation for the benefit of the administrators. Right. The sport of rowing and success of rowing is not about our success as individuals on the board. It is about the success of all the people out there rowing. So be really clear about who your stakeholders are and who you're there to serve and we are there to serve rowers across all spectrums of the community, across all ages. So there's an accountability for us to our national team that represent our country at world championships and Olympic Games. We also have a role to play for social and community rowers at a junior level, at a senior level, at a masters level. We have rowers rowing into their 90s. And then there are all those volunteers that we talked about as well that also feel a deep connection to the sport. So being really clear about, well, what are the things that we're doing as a sport to help these people? That's what it's all about and I think where you touched on Kate at the start is, making sure you have a strategy that unites all aspects of the sport. Often I think organised companies or sports, they think about strategy in terms of there's a whole lot of trade-offs either in sport either we're going to focus on the high performance area or we're going to focus on the community and participation area. I think part of the problem is strategy development is organisations get themselves all confused. We are either going to be one or the other and that they're competing against each other? In some ways that's analogous to how some companies think. Some companies think I'm either going to try and deliver a profit and return to shareholders or I'm going to focus on all these things that are good for the community and the environment. Well, that's not the way I think about it at all. The more experience I've had in business in sport, the more I think that these things are inextricably linked. So in a company, at my company Wesfarmers, we are very focused on delivering superior returns for our shareholders. And we know that if we do the right thing by our team members, our customers, the communities in which we operate and the environment in which we operate, then we will ultimately, over the long term, deliver better outcomes for our shareholders. I think the analogy with sport would be ok we know in the sport of rowing we want to win a lot of medals at the Olympic Games and I think over the long term, we'll be even more successful at delivering on that if we have a very vibrant rowing community across Australia. If we're deeply engaged and connected, if we're leveraging the phenomenal capability and ingenuity of our alumni and volunteers. So they are the things I think that boards should be reflecting on in the context of strategy development.

Kate Corkery Really interesting observations. And thank you for joining me and your valuable insights into Principle 3. The Game Plan.

Rob Scott Thanks, Kate.

Kate Corkery If you'd like to access a copy of the Sport Governance Principles, you'll find them at the SportAUS website sportaus.gov.au/governance. If you have any feedback or questions, please email us at sportgovernance@ausport.gov.au. My name is Kate Corkery and I look forward to you joining me for the next podcast in the Sport Governance Series

Sport Governance Principles - The Players

This is a Sport Australia podcast production.

Kate Corkery: Hello and welcome to the Sport Governance Podcast series. My name is Kate Corkery and I am the Director of Sport Governance and Strategy at Sport Australia. Over this series, we will take a deep dive into the sport governance principles and how they come to life in practice. Each podcast will focus on an individual principle with a special guest joining me to share their experiences and practical advice with respect to that principle.

In today’s episode we are focusing on Principle 4 – The Players. A diverse board to enable considered decision making. Principle 4 highlights that a board should be a diverse group of people who collectively provide different perspectives and experience to facilitate more considered decision making.

We are privileged to be joined by Pippa Downes to discuss this critical principle. Pippa has over 25 years experience in global financial services in Australia, Asia and the US. Pippa was a managing director of Goldman Sachs in Australia for over six years. Pippa is a commissioner of the Australian Sports Commission and is a director of Australian Technology Innovators ZIP Co., ALE Property Group and Ingenia Communities Ltd. Pippa is a former director of Swimming Australia and Sydney Olympic Park. Pippa is also a dual international athlete, having swum for Australia and represented Hong Kong in the rugby sevens. Hello, Pippa and thank you for joining me to discuss this significantly important principle that underpins good governance.

Pippa Downes: Thanks, Kate. I'm delighted to be with you today.

Kate Corkery:  So let's start with benefits. What are the benefits of diversity to a board?

Pippa Downes: Well, look, I think the research is very clear that when you have a diverse board, better decisions are made and you're less likely to miss things. So, you know, then if you have a group of like minded individuals and the role of the board is so critical in setting the strategy and for an organisation that you really can't afford to have a sub-optimal board. So a diverse group of people is really the only way to go.

Kate Corkery: And when we talk about sport, quite often matters relating to conflict of interests come up in terms of diversity. How is that played out for you?

Pippa Downes: It's very interesting, right? I mean, when you're on a board, you have a duty to the organisation to do the right thing. And I think what I've sort of encountered through some of my dealings with sports governance is people come onto the board and they come with their little patch that they feel like they're representing. But when you come onto a board, you need to leave that at the door because you're trying to represent the sport as a whole. And I think sometimes people miss that they have a fiduciary duty to the whole sport and the whole organisation, and they're not in there batting for their little patch. So everybody has to be doing what is in the collective best interests of the sport, not what perhaps they're, you know, where they came from. So if they're a coach, for example, if they're a high performance athlete, you've got to look at the big picture when you're on a board. And I think sometimes people don't quite understand that. And I think, you know, there are conflicts that arise. I've seen it myself. And sometimes that comes because people don't understand the duties of a director. To act in the best interests of the whole organisation. But I think that comes through education. And I think, you know, I think increasingly people do understand what a conflict is. And if it sort of smells like it, something might not be right, there's probably a pretty good chance there's a conflict going on.

Kate Corkery: We have conversations about the importance of elected directors and the importance of appointed directors. How does this inter-relate with a principle around diversity?

Pippa Downes: I think one of the lessons that I certainly learnt when I was on the board of Swimming Australia, one of the problems we had with the Federated Models is that the elected directors, like any politician frankly, I think there's a reason why elected politicians generally are continually rate quite low in the public's perception of them, rightly or wrongly. Because they are seen to be making short term decisions for the electoral cycle. I think, you know what I certainly witnessed in the swimming world when I was on the board many years ago, is that some of the directors were scared to make some of the the right decisions because they were worried about being elected. And that's the beauty of the independent directors who can come in. Often times they may or may not like obviously I was very involved in swimming but I hadn't been around the sport for 20 years. So I was able to come in with a very fresh perspective. I hadn't been involved, so I didn't have sort of a preconceived notion about what the right ideas were for the sport. I think what you can find, the people that been involved in the sport for so, so long, they sometimes may lose the perspective. I mean, the world's rapidly changing and sports also need to adapt. Like companies have to adapt. If you don't adapt, you die and you end up out of business. And unfortunately, sports are in the same way. I mean, we've seen it this year with COVID just how quickly we've seen the professional sports having to lay off people and adapt their operating models. So you need to be able to do that. You need to have a fresh perspective. Independent directors have that ability because they don't have to face the members, I guess, for a certain period, which gives it a little bit of flexibility to be able to sort of make those long term decisions that may not be popular but, you know, as we know, sometimes you do need to make decisions that might not be popular in the short term but there are obviously the best interests of the sport in the long term. I think a lot of sports are learning, just in the last nine months with COVID, that sometimes you've got to make some tough decisions to keep the sport liquid. You know, when when sport stopped and membership fees didn't come in. You know, it's been a very tough time for sports. Volunteers haven't been engaged and that forces, you know, decisions and strategic decisions that the board have to make. That sometimes, perhaps some parts of the sport may not be happy with but ultimately, the board has to make the best long term decisions that are in the long term interests of the sport.

Kate Corkery: Indeed, and I've certainly had many discussions with directors over the last six or nine months about the fact that they came on to a sport board because they wanted to see it thrive. They never expected that they would be in conversations about it collapsing. And that's certainly been a bit of a reality check for a lot of our directors on sport boards over last six months. What attributes create diversity on a board?

Pippa Downes: Diversity comes in many different forms but ultimately, I think you need people with diverse backgrounds and perspectives for a start. I think you need people with diverse experiences, a life experience and sport experience. So, for example I don't think it's valuable to necessarily have, for example on a rugby board have 10 guys that used to play rugby because, you know, let's face it, they're going to have a quite similar perspective. So I think, you know, having very different perspectives is valuable. I think having diverse backgrounds is very valuable. So, for example, you know, if I think of say some about the sport of cricket, you know, it's a very popular sport in some of the southern Asian parts for the Australian community. And, you know, if you're thinking about participation, you know, it would be wise to want to have the viewpoint of some of the people from that community, I would think. And you obviously need diverse skill sets both educationally and what you bring to the table, because, as you know, different boards at different times need different skills. But you need the greatest amount of perspective to make sure you don't miss anything. And that's the beauty of a diverse board. And you can have robust discussions with everybody asking different things. And, you know, sometimes it's great to have people that have a completely different perspective, because I think what happens if you've got people, too many people that have got the same perspective, sometimes the big questions don't get asked the sort of 'elephant in the room' type questions or the dumb question, which somebody who's not as close to it might say, well no actually, why are we even doing that, which might be for people that have been too close to it, perhaps for many, many years and are very entrenched in their views, might not be able to see. And that's why it really helps to have a whole lot of different people attacking a problem from different angles.

Kate Corkery: So if you're looking for these different people, you're out there, you've got a board, you recognise you need to diversify the directors either for age or gender or cultural and linguistic background, how do you go about doing that?

Pippa Downes: Well, look I think for all boards to be effective, they need to really understand at any given point what their big challenges are and what the sort of basic skills that they need to be a high performing board. And so, you know, I think it's a given that you probably need people that are financially literate particularly sports are in some challenging times financially. So financial expertise is almost a given. But depending on where the sport is in its lifecycle, the particular challenges they're facing, you may want to beef up your skill sets in particular areas. So, as I said, if there's financial difficulties, having some accountants or experts helping you navigate that or beefing up in that area might be wise. If a sport is desperate for looking for a sponsor and trying to raise its profile, because at the end of the day, it's a dog eat dog world out there in the sports world trying to compete for dollars. So maybe you might want to get some marketing people with some of that skill to sort of assist the management teams to do that. So the board isn't there to do the job of management but it's certainly able to counsel and advise. You might have, you know if you're going through tough times, you've got to look at how the organisation needs to change in a tough environment, having people that are management consultants or people with HR backgrounds might be able to assist. Technology is obviously a very big one. So I think increasingly sports need to compete and connect with their members and technology is the enabler in that space so having somebody with that background. But I think really you need to have a skills matrix set up to make sure you know what you've got. Look at the you know, look at the people you've got on the board or work out where your holes are and that's absolutely critical to make sure, again, that you don't miss stuff because a diverse board needs to be able to cover all its bases, or at least if they don't have it, know that they don't have it may be able to bring somebody in from the outside to assist on some of the more tricky issues that they're facing.

Kate Corkery: Absolutely. And you have the board skills matrix to identify all those gaps in terms of skill and personal qualities on the board. You then find yourself in a position where you've got a nominations committee to oversee the election and appointment of directors. Talk to me about the change in the sophistication impact of nominations committees in sport over the past couple of years.

Pippa Downes: Yeah, look, I think there's been some really good work that's been done in sports like tennis that have really tried to sort of, I guess have that lens about what the board really needs. What the sport really needs. And in a sort of almost a dispassionate way to say listen right now we need skills A, B and C. And so really, if we're filling some spots on the board, this is our immediate need in the next one to two to three years that we really need to beef up our skills in that area. And that way they can look at the candidates that are coming through and sort of almost sort of vet them to say look these people can add that value to the board because we're always trying to enhance the quality of the board by beefing up the skills. I mean, that's how I mean, it's like an athlete and if an athlete wants to be successful, they've got to train hard. They've got to cover all their bases. If they've got a weakness, they've got to work on it. And that's how you excel. And that's how our athletes are high performance athletes. That's how our coaches learn. And boards have to do the same thing to understand where they're a little bit weak, how they can fill the gaps to, you know, be able to assist the greater sport moving forward.

Kate Corkery: And is it important that the voting members understand the value and the importance of the nominations committee process in terms of ensuring ultimately as the people with the power of the vote, the candidates who are not suitable for the needs of the diversity of the board at any time?

Pippa Downes: Well, look, I think it's absolutely important to connect with your members. I mean, you know, sports are run for the members. And there has to be absolute transparency but for the boards and the members to understand the process and why the boards are doing what they're doing. And I think the minute you know boards are not clear about what they're doing or the boards are not listening to their members or even, you know, there's a lot of governance reform going on now where the members you know frankly, sometimes they don't even have a say. And I think that's problematic. So ultimately the boards are there to help the sports and its members, not the other way around. So it's critical that the members understand the process, why it's happening, be absolutely transparent about the skills that they're looking for at the time so they can understand the appointments or they can understand the type of candidates that have been put forward to them to vote for. And ultimately it's the responsibility of the chair and the board to make sure that is transparent to their members so there's no backlash through that process.

Kate Corkery: You've just mentioned the chair and the chair is another position on the board which modern good governance has sort of adapted in terms of its appointment over recent years. And one of the key good governance concepts now is around the board appointing or electing the chair from amongst the directors. Why is that so important?

Pippa Downes: That's absolutely critical. I mean, the chair is apart from the CEO of the organisation, the chair is the most important person. You know, they are ultimately the conduit between the board and the management team and the CEO and they are the ones that run the meetings and optimise the discussion and the strategy coming out of that board. And it's a skill. I mean, being a good chair is a skill and a good chair will ensure that everybody around the table gets heard that they don't impose their own views on the room and that they're listening to everybody. And that's, you know, when you have a diverse board, which is what we need to be successful, a good chair is very skilled at doing that. Now, I have experience absolutely the opposite and sometimes I know when I was on the board of swimming there was a member elected chair. Now, sometimes that just doesn't work. I mean, you really know the directors and know who is the person that probably is best placed to have that integrity to run the board meetings and to optimise the work of the board and I think it's absolutely critical that the directors are the ones that nominate that because the members they don't have that, if the members elect their directors, they need to have that trust that the directors can choose who it is appropriate to run that and do that optimally.

Kate Corkery: One of the key issues that we faced in good governance, not just in a sports sector but across the corporate sector, the not for profit sector, is women on boards and they are obviously a fundamental input into good decision making in terms of diversity. In 2015, Sport Australia applied a target of women NSO boards and that target was 40 per cent representation and despite that target being in place now for five years, we're still not hitting it. And in fact, worse than that for the 68 funded national sporting organisations, the gender balance is actually only 34 per cent and has declined by one per cent over the past four years and only 18 of our chairs are female which is 26 per cent. Why do you think that is?

Pippa Downes: Well look I think historically, you can't get away from the fact that sport and most businesses have been run by men. But things have changed radically in the last few years, particularly in sport, with the participation of women. So it's obviously critical you're not going to have a diverse board making good decisions if half the population are missing from the seat at the table. So I think, I don't know but there's still a lot of work to be done. Unfortunately I think some people are involved in boards, you know some people love their sports, everybody loves their sports. You'd hope that they're involved for the right reasons. But sometimes people want to be with people that they're comfortable and familiar with. Perhaps they don't know the women some of these boards are very political, as we know, unfortunately and sometimes people lose sight of why they're there and the purpose of the board and whose interests they should be looking out for which of course is the best interests of the sport as a whole. And maybe some women get a bit sick of it or they're not as interested in the politics because they want to work more collaboratively and, you know, sometimes people end up being a bit too close to the sport. And I've seen that. I've got firsthand experience of people who I'm sure anybody on a sporting board knows where people are in it, potentially not for the good of the sport, but for power or whatever reason, or they're just you know, they're so they're so close to it sometimes that they lose sight of why they're there and perhaps people sort of who are there for the good of the sport, you know, get disheartened and I know I certainly know that was sort of my experience a few years ago at Swimming Australia and others but it's so critical for the sports that we get as many people involved from as diverse range from the volunteers, to the coaches, to the participants. I think re-engaging with the alumni of the sport and ex athletes once they've, you know, been a successful athlete, often go on to have a different career and then they come back to the sport or maybe their kids start playing the sport. And I think having those people that have the love of the sport at their heart, maybe they're not as attached because they haven't been involved in sort of the day to day politics for the last sort of like 10 or 20 years. And, you know, sometimes people don't appreciate sometimes it's time to walk away. You know, you've got to let other people have a go. People can, all of us get very attached to our views and that's human nature. So sometimes I think it's important that people step away from the sports to give other people go, to get fresh perspectives on how the sport should be run. And you shouldn't have entrenched people running sports forever and a day because I think unfortunately sometimes they sort of lose sight of why they're there and moving forward and that's why you always have to have diverse, fresh thinking to make sure you're always looking forward about how to adapt into the new world.

Kate Corkery: So you've highlighted there the ways we can promote vacancies to actively seek diversity of directors. You've spoken about re-engaging with alumni of the sport, using networks, not being afraid to reach into professional community organisations and businesses. The other opportunity that there is and highlighting this for our listeners is Sport Australia actually has a national Director Register. You can register your interest to be on sport boards in Australia and when sport board positions are advertised, we push that out to those who fit the criteria on our register and that's a really great opportunity for us to identify and communicate with people who are interested in being on sport boards and feel like they've got a particular skill set or capability to offer.

Pippa Downes: Absolutely you think about how many participants in sport, who loves sports, who go off and, you know, enter into whatever career they choose, who have got a lot of knowledge, a lot of passion, who want to funnel that into the sport just because they love it, like me swimming gave me a great opportunity to travel to get a college education in the US so I want to give back to the sport and there's you know, hundreds of thousands of other athletes similar to me or perhaps their kids are playing a sport and they want to make sure that that sport is well-run. They can see things that probably need to change from their perspective. And they may have a very different perspective from a participation perspective watching their kids than sort of an elite high performance lens and, you know for sport to be firing on all cylinders, you've got to get the pathways right, you've got to get the participation right, you've got to get the elite and that's why having a diverse perspective and lots of different people who are looking at the sport from different angles is the way you make sure you don't miss anything and it's thriving.

Kate Corkery: Pippa, thank you so much for joining me on our SportAUS podcast, exploring Principle 4 -The Players.

Pippa Downes: My pleasure. Kate.

Kate Corkery: If you'd like to access a copy of the Sport Governance Principles, you'll find them at the SportAUS website sportaus.gov.au/governance. If you have any feedback or questions, please email us at sportsgovernance@ausport.gov.au. My name is Kate Corkery and I look forward to you joining me for the next podcast in the Sport Governance Series.

Sport Governance Principles - The Rule Book

This is a Sport Australia podcast production.

Kate Corkery Hello and welcome to the Sport Governance Podcast series. My name is Kate Corkery and I am the Director of Sport Governance and Strategy at Sport Australia. Over this series we will take a deep dive into the sport governance principles and how they come to life in practice. Each podcast will focus on an individual principle with a special guest joining me to share their experiences and practical advice with respect to that principle.

Kate Corkery In today's episode, we are focusing on Principle five, the Rule Book. Documents that outline duties, powers, roles and responsibilities. Principle five highlights that an organisation should clearly define and document its structures and the duties, responsibilities and powers of its members, Directors, committees and management. To discuss the Rule Book, we're joined by Vince del Prete, the CEO of Athletics W.A. Vince was appointed as CEO of Little Athletics W.A. in July 2016 and held this role until August 2019, where he was then appointed to the CEO as the One Management team to lead the historical unification of the sport of athletics in Western Australia. This was undertaken through the merger of Little Athletics W.A. and Athletics W.A. The new state sporting body Athletics West, launched on 1 July 2020 with Vince at the helm. Vince has had over 30 years experience in human resources management, corporate governance, strategic planning and policy analysis. He has undertaken many roles in sport including coach, team manager, club president and board director to name just a few.

Kate Corkery Vince, thank you for joining me to discuss this really important principle.

Vince Del Prete Thank you, Kate, and I hope you're well.

Kate Corkery I do have a number of people who say to me, this is the boring side of good governance and others that say it's the sexy side of good governance. I'm not going to ask you which side of the statement you sit on but from your broad experience in many governance roles, Why is this principle so important?

Vince Del Prete I think it sets the foundation of how accountable we've become as an organisation and as a sport and ultimately it really leads to the decision making as an organisation. So pretty critical, I would have thought, and also sets the framework for the rest of the people within the organisation.

Kate Corkery So you're the inaugural CEO of Athletics West, which is a new sporting organisation formed 1 July 2020 with the merger of Athletics W.A. and Little Athletics W.A.. What were the key drivers for that merger?

Vince Del Prete One liner would be the consolidation of the governance of the sport providing a complete sport to potential members and investors. The development of clear pathways for all our coaches, our athletes, our volunteers and officials. It would be fair to say that the sport has been somewhat fragmented by having two different organisations, potentially two sets of values, two sets of ideas on how the sport should be run. So the members were pretty strong about wanting to be heard about having a very clearly defined body that manages the sport and has the governance of the sport in W.A. It also means that we've been able to streamline our processes and even the financial position of the sport in W.A. in terms of the streamlining of the two businesses into one.

Kate Corkery Yeah, look, it was an historical unification and one that no doubt will become an exemplar for other organisations in sports. When we talk about the Rule Book so that the documents that outline duties, powers, rules and responsibilities, the most important document for sporting organisations is the Constitution. So what process did you undertake to build the Athletics West constitution?

Vince Del Prete I think it's important for us to perhaps go right back to when this whole process of becoming one sport actually took place that led to the Constitution being developed. We go way back to 2017 when the sport as a whole decided that we needed to embrace a whole sport strategic plan with buyin from across the membership. And that set the scene about letting the members understand they own the sport and where they in many ways the gatekeeper of it. This led to the joint organisation review that was undertaken in 2018, which identified 16 key recommendations with two of those major ones being, one to merge the sport and two, the establishment of a new constitution under the Corporations Act. It was deemed to be important that we would go under the Corporations Act because we believe it provides more scope for the sport, but also it provides probably a lot stronger reporting requirements to give a sense of comfort to the members that the sport is in really good hands, when it comes to the board and the management at Athletics West. The other key thing for us throughout the journey, the buyin and involvement of the members has been critical to the establishment of the new constitution. And we had a lot of consultation forums, regular meetings, regular updates to keep them across how the Constitution was being developed. So really critical. And I think really the Rule Book played a critical role in that.

Kate Corkery And you note that the absolutely critical responsibility that members have with respect of Constitutions, so in your case, it was the establishment of the Constitution but ongoing, they will have an obligation for amendments and improvements to the Constitution. When you went through initial negotiations, were there any areas within the Constitution that were more difficult than others to negotiate and determine?

Vince Del Prete Kate, when you look at that, there was similar constitutions in a way previously, but with some slight differences. One of them was the definition of membership, believe it or not in terms of slight definitions and what they meant. So we had to work through that process. The voting process was another critical one. In the past, Athletics WA had a vote weighted system where based on the size of your club, determined whether you got three votes, two votes, one vote. Little Athletics, it was very much one centre, one vote regardless of the size of the organisation. So we had to work through coming to a position how we would deal with the voting process and what we agreed to in the end, because we're trying to get clubs and centres, juniors and seniors, to become one we've pretty much said if you provide the whole service as a club or a  centre, you would get two votes to recognise both sides of the sport. If you're only providing a Little Athletics program or a Seniors program, you would only get one vote. And I think the members could see the value in that sort of voting system. The other one was the initial transitional clause in terms of how many directors should we have on the new board and what is the right number. And thankfully, we had some good guidance in terms of documentation Sport Australia had in what constitutes a good corporation template. And we settled on a number that both boards were happy with. And then was how do we split, if you like the transitioning of directors from both boards onto one. Who would chair, normally under good governance, as you would know, the chair would be elected by the directors. In this case, because the merger was decided that one year the current chair of Little Athletics would chair the board and the next year it would be the current chair of the Seniors.  And so that way was just a way to get a little bit of -how do you put it - that members felt a little bit more at ease. That from both sides they were being heard, that they had an equal buy-in to the process, an equal buy-in to the governance of the Athletics West Board. That was a pretty critical piece for them believe it or not.

Kate Corkery No, look the selection of the board chair and the importance of that within modern or contemporary good governance is significant, as is having confidence to then in any transition of an organisation, that corporate knowledge is retained and leadership is consistent. So I think it sounds like they were well worked through. In terms of whether it's a state sporting organisation or a national sporting organisation or large or small why is it important to have clear and transparent documents to explain how the organisations are governed.  In looking at those documents for Athletics West, what key documents have been given priority?

Vince Del Prete So first of all, if I can say, we were very fortunate to be able to leverage off Sport Australia's previous governance and best practises, documents and frameworks that were available and also the ability to leverage off what the two national bodies of Little Athletics Australia and Athletics Australia also had in place in terms of its governance structures and how it had structured its constitution. For us it is really important, because this really sets the framework of, I use the word accountability before in decision making, and it sets for us a really clear framework on the delegation of powers between board and management, which certainly leads to very good governance in terms of values, behaviours and practices, which for us are very, very important in terms of the transparency in the documents and how we govern. Also, I think the good documentation also provides a good check point for assessing where the organisation the sport is at, in essence, a health check of sorts. But also, I think it's important that it allows us to have in place well functioning teams that can operate in a safe environment within the organisation and on the board. So for us, in terms of having clear, concise documents, really assist in - like us said at the beginning - accountability and decision making and really sets a framework that people can work around and with.

Kate Corkery You have spoken about delegated authority, so we know that the board has ultimate responsibility for and control over the way the organisation is run, except in some matters which may require the involvement of members and we've spoken about changing the organisation's constitution. However, boards can choose to delegate part of their authority to others, such as the organisation's staff and even if they don't have staff to volunteers. What has been the process to establish clear delegations between the board and yourself as CEO, for example?

Vince Del Prete So I think the first thing we've done besides the Constitution is that it was important for us to establish some really guiding documents in terms of understanding the delegation between the board, the CEO and even the management team. The first thing we've really put in place is what we call the Board Charter that really sets out directors, CEO and management responsibilities, captures the code of conduct in there, clearly outlines the delegation, along with the finance, risk and audit documents that we've developed. The financial management policy delegation, member protection, safeguarding policies. So for us, it was really important to establish those documents that clearly provides a framework around that delegation because otherwise it becomes really challenging in ensuring that people know how to work within, I guess the process and the procedures of the organisation.

Kate Corkery You've also picked up there board subcommittees. So board subcommittees are a really effective mechanism to assist boards to govern well and to augment the capability of the board in terms of additional diversity and expertise and I was talking to someone today about also the importance of subcommittees as a pathway or a training ground for future directors. What has been the process used by Athletics West to identify subcommittees that are going to be able to assist the board?

Vince Del Prete The Athletics West board has got a really strong position, if you like, on its financial and risk management responsibilities and the responsibilities that directors have in that area. For us, it was really pivotal in the early days to establish a finance risk audit committee and to really ensure that all the documents I've already mentioned or the delegation, that we have a process in place that we know we're on the right track in terms of how the organisation has been managed, how decision making is arrived at and also, I think the real key thing is about providing an opportunity for growth of the organisation because like that committee should also be in a position to say, hey, we're doing some really good stuff, how can we continue to have continuous improvement, which to me is really critical in terms of of the organisation being able to go forward in the sport being able to going forward. And as you've mentioned, Kate also a good breeding ground for the next level of directors that may wish to join the board down the track or current directors that may be new to the board and perhaps as a way of professional development for them and to really get a better understanding of what governance really does mean. It isn't just attending board meetings and reading your board papers, but that you have that responsibility that when you're making decisions, that there is a process around it and then you're making decisions for the right reasons. But to me, I think it also just continues to build on board values and board culture having subcommittees in place, because I think people buyin a lot better.

Kate Corkery They are really valuable observations. So if people listening to our discussion and they want support or somewhere to start and certainly calling out to some of our state sporting organisation directors who might be listening to this podcast series, what advice would you give them?

Vince Del Prete I would certainly refer them to the Sport Australia Sport Governance Principles document. It is a fantastic resource in terms of what it provides in really understanding the principles of governance. But I like the questions it actually asks under each of the principles, really easy to follow and it gives a really good heads up in terms of things you need to be thinking about. The other thing I like on your website is there's a fantastic array of templates that certainly will assist any sporting teams of understanding the documentation it needsand the support it can get by leveraging off those templates that are available on the Sport Australia website. The other thing as well is that people shouldn't be scared as well to get on the blower, ring Sport Australia and ask for help or support or even their Department of Sport & Rec they may have within their state who are a valuable resource as well and I think the other valuable resource we have is that we have so many people that are knowledgeable within the sport industry that they could actually get in touch with, like Athletics, that can explain the journey we've been on, what's meant in terms of governance and what they need to do. So I think there's just so many wonderful resources available that I think really people can tap into.

Kate Corkery I mean, what you've highlighted there is there's really no excuse. I mean, the state and territory Departments of Sport and Recreation and ourselves that Sport Australia and like you say, your colleagues in the sector are almost always too willing to help and provide support. You mentioned the questions to ask in the Sports Governance Principles. Are they a source of discussion or debate in the Athletics West boardroom at the moment?

Vince Del Prete Absolutely. As of last week's board meeting, there was a commitment made by the directors at each board meeting, we will go through two principles, which becomes a very good health check for us as I've mentioned previously.  But we've also used it as part of our development of our culture, our culture sessions in terms of the values we want to have, the expected behaviours around those values and also as a way of board professional development for our directors. There would be some that have already been through upskilling previously, that perhaps it's great for them to go back and have a read of those questions and then be in a position to provide their expertise to the new directors, but also for the new directors to get an understanding of, ok that's what those things mean and that's what I need to be doing so and then to complement them, I think the podcasts that are being done, which I think will always provide some additional information in terms of what the questions may mean or what does that particular principle mean. So it's been fantastic, certainly for Athletics West to get now the board really engaging around the sports governance principles.

Kate Corkery Vince, thank you for joining me on our sport podcast series exploring Principle five, The Rule Book. And best of luck to you and the Board of Athletics West as they continue to embed and activate good governance in athletics in Western Australia.

Vince Del Prete Thank you, Kate. And again, thank you to Sport Australia for certainly your support of the sport of athletics coming together in WA.

Kate Corkery Thank you for joining me today. If you'd like to access a copy of the Sport Governance Principles, you'll find them on the SportAUS website sportaus.gov.au/governance. If you have any feedback or questions, please email us at sportsgovernance@sportaus.gov.au My name is Kate Corkery and I look forward to you joining me for the next podcast in the Sport Governance Series.

Sport Governance Principles - The Play Book

This is a Sport Australia podcast production.

Kate Corkery Hello and welcome to the Sport Governance Podcast series. My name is Kate Corkery and I am the Director of Sport Governance and Strategy at Sport Australia. Over this series we will take a deep dive into the sport governance principles and how they come to life in practice. Each podcast will focus on an individual principle with a special guest joining me to share their experiences and practical advice with respect to that principle.

Kate Corkery In today's episode, we are focusing on Principle Six the Playbook. Board processes which ensure accountability and transparency. Principle Six highlights through effective processes and continual review of its performance, the board is able to demonstrate accountability and transparency to its members and stakeholders. To discuss the Playbook, we are joined by Carolyn Campbell, Chair of Sport New South Wales and former Netball New South Wales CEO. Carolyn commenced her career as a teacher and went on to work as CEO of the WA Women's Hockey Association. Following the successful delivery of the 2002 Women's Hockey World Cup in Perth, Carolyn left her West Coast home to join Netball New South Wales. Initially as the game's development manager and ultimately as chief executive officer, a role that she held for the last 15 years. In that time, Carolyn has led the sport through an evolution across all tiers, from grass roots to the highly competitive elite environment, operating two teams, the Swifts and the Giants, in the super netball league. Carolyn is the chair of Sport New South Wales, which is an independent member based peak body representing New South Wales sport and the active recreation sector, and a director of Bankstown District Sports Club and Hockey Mum. Carolyn, thank you for joining me to share your experiences on the playbook.

Carolyn Campbell Thank you, Kate. It's lovely to be here.

Kate Corkery The playbook really focuses on board accountability and transparency. In your experience, what is the difference between a board being an accountable and a board being transparent?

Carolyn Campbell Absolutely. The accountability is about the understanding of the role and the commitments and what's required with the role. It's also ensuring that all your board procedures and methods are actually followed. It's really about the 'what' and what you're actually considering and in how you're actually doing that.

Kate Corkery And when a board is being accountable, are they accountable for both behaviour and policies and systems?

Carolyn Campbell Accountability around the understanding of the role and the commitment that's required to undertake that role to the necessary levels that it needs to be and is also ensuring the behaviour and that the board procedures are functional and it works well in terms of setting up the decision making and the discussions that may occur inside that boardroom.

Kate Corkery And what does transparency mean for a board?

Carolyn Campbell Transparency is really about the visibility to the members that you're responsible to or the group that you're working with. It's about the reporting. It's creating the communication and making sure the accessibility to any necessary information is provided from the board as part of that process so that it's very clear as to how the decisions have been made and what will be undertaken from that.

Kate Corkery So when we talk about directors in sport in Australia, most of our Australian sport directors are volunteers. But the role of director, whether held at national sporting organisation level or state sporting organisational level, carries significant legal duties and responsibilities. What should directors do to understand and ultimately discharge their duties, powers and responsibilities at law?

Carolyn Campbell It's absolutely essential that all directors ask any questions that they need to, seek further information if required, or clarity of information. There's no every director is responsible around the board table. There's no one leading that. They are all in it together and they need to make sure that they've got any information or clarity that they require in regards to that. I think when you talk about directors responsibility and legal duties, people often don't necessarily have that full understanding when they join a board. So it's very important that that's part of the induction process to them as well, that they clearly understand what they have put themselves into and how that might work for them to to make sure that they can fulfil that role to the level that they need to.

Kate Corkery And we often hear comments, I'm on a board, but I'm not an accountant. We have an accountant on the board and they've got responsibility for the finances of the board and the reporting, financial reporting of the board. Is that correct?

Carolyn Campbell No, every single director has the same responsibility, and I guess there's a number of key elements to that, whether it's financial, whether it's understanding legal advice that has been provided from the external provider of that to the board, every director has that responsibility. So there is a need to have a general set of skills that allows you to actually be fluent in understanding that information and how that's presented. And and as I keep saying, you need to ask questions or seek further information if you're not clear on that. You should never go with the flow on the fact that you're just a director sitting around a table because you are as just as responsible for those that are making the decisions, whether you have understood it or not.

Kate Corkery Yeah, that's really good advice. So Director is obviously a position on the board, but there are other key roles on the board. So chair, company secretary, how important is it to have clear position descriptions for these key roles?

Carolyn Campbell I think it's imperative because again, because of the way that boards often are formed, you may find yourself in one of those roles and you need to have good clarity around what those expectations are. And it's something that should be discussed within the board room about how that's going to work and what makes that work. I think really, position descriptions just help people understand what those expectations are and also gives them a very clear understanding of the commitment. So a chair of a board is an enormous commitment to take on with the need to actually be the liaison with the CEO to actually conduct the board in a way that everybody has or feels as though they have good interaction and the ability to put their position forward. And at times, you know, it needs to bring order or to put a framework around how those decisions are made so at some stage having a great feel for the board and the room and that's really important for a chair, for example. And I think sometimes that's not necessarily understood by all as to how onerous that a position like that can be.

Kate Corkery Indeed. I mean, we start off by talking about accountability. So how the board conducts its business, what policies or practises can a board put in place to assure its stakeholders, transparently that the board is governing it effectively and in the best interests of the organisation?

Carolyn Campbell It really starts at the induction process Kate because if you're a new director coming in, you need to have a full understanding of what the policies and procedures are and how the board may operate. And that should be done in conjunction with some members of the board as well so you've got a multi faceted view of that. Most definitely the procedures around Board Charter's, code of conduct, even down to expectations of meeting time frames in terms of how often, regularity, how long they will be. Are they conducted in this new world of lots of hybrid /  Zoom as opposed to in person? What does that actually look like? I think that all helps and explains to people exactly what their commitment is. And those policies and procedures should be openly available to you if you're putting your hand up to become a director, because it's no point finding out once you've been elected or appointed to a board that it's not going to work for you or you're able to commit that sort of time. So the transparency, openly available policies and procedures and code of conduct is very important.

Kate Corkery And should those documentation's be shared with the members of the organisation?

Carolyn Campbell In most part, yes, certainly code of conduct, some board charters should be available. Some of the internal workings of board policies around perhaps expectations, I think there's still a place for an internal board document that helps spell out exactly what, you know, may be around requirements and needs for directors to attend different events or whatever the board might be dealing with. I think that's more of an internal document, but everything else is certainly should be widely spread.

Kate Corkery So let's talk about conflict of interest. It's one of the key documents that creates accountability and transparency for boards and for directors. What is a conflict of interest? And can you give us examples of some common conflicts of interest that you've come across in your time in sport?

Carolyn Campbell A conflict of interest is something that somebody can have a gain in a personal capacity by having exposure or having information given to you that you may receive in your professional capacity and understanding that can be real and material or it can also be perceived. I think sport really struggles with some of this in the way that people come onto boards and a lot have come from inside the sport and therefore they already have alliances or they come from a particular home base or whatever that might look like. So that can often be drawn into that conflict of interest. For me in sport boards, I think some of the things are that when decisions are being made around perhaps particular associations or facilities that people may have an involvement in or have been involved in. And then there's this sort of business side of sport that can extend through to being a material conflict of interest. So if you have connections with a business that is a merchandise business or a uniform supply business or trophy's or even down to running particular centres or having leases on things, all of those can be well and truly perceived and probably are material conflicts of interest that need to be addressed inside the boardroom.

Kate Corkery So how should boards and directors identify and ultimately manage these conflicts of interest?

Carolyn Campbell It should be a standing agenda item at the front of the board agenda, so that when as a director, when you get your board pack, anything that you see inside of that board pack that may be perceived or material conflict of interest, you raise that at the opening of the meeting. This, of course, goes hand in glove with the fact that you would have a disclosure document that's filled in at the when you're actually inducted and brought onto the board. And any of those as part of your registration and compliance requirements of being a director are already called out in that. But there may be additional things that say it's an agenda item that has a real conflict of interest on just that particular board meeting, it needs to be called out at the top of that. The board can then decide as a group, is it how do they want to deal with that conflict of interest? And if it is that someone's asked to leave the room for that discussion or that decision, then tthat should be minuted and noted. Any any conflicts of interest need to be contained inside the minutes so that there's, again, that transparency down the track. If a decision is made and you are conflicted in that and you weren't part of the decision making, it needs to be well and truly documented that you didn't take any part of that so that you've got that transparency being reported.

Kate Corkery So you've just picked up there on the issue of 'minutes', the accuracy of minutes and why that's so important. Timely board minutes. One of the challenges that we quite often hear is that the board meeting happens, that the minutes have been taken but they're not distributed to directors in a 'timely' fashion or the directors receive them, but they don't review them in a timely fashion. What's your experience in terms of the effectiveness of board minute review in order to ensure accuracy and quality of minutes?

Carolyn Campbell I think the biggest thing for me is, is getting them done quickly and circulated to directors for viewing. And because ultimately again it gets back to that accountability. As a director, you have a responsibility to review those minutes and to provide any corrections or seek any clarity or even provide additional points if you want something that wasn't captured, that you think should have been, you need to put that back to the whole board for discussion.  Directors are usually very busy people. So you need to keep the momentum of that up for that reason, because if it goes for an elongated period of time, then obviously you're relying on memory or your notes, which then need to come back. So again, depending on the meeting cycle, it would be imperative to have minutes out within the week and for people to review those and then for corrections or clarity to be sought by directors in that sort of time frame as well, not leaving it till you perhaps your next board meeting, which might be six weeks away, and then asking, oh, by the way, I really wanted to talk about this and so and again, it can flow through to the agenda item that can be carried forward, if you wanted more information on that as well. I think from a hearing, a CEO hat, it's imperative that you get those minutes out and that they're distributed to the board and any comments are sought because they become your road map. And there's a lot of decisions and actions that need to be enacted usually by your operational staff. So to be able to cut the relevant pieces out of the minutes and provide them as quickly as possible to ensure that those action items or decisions can be enacted as quickly as they need to be.

Kate Corkery And that really links in as you say, to the agenda. So how can a board ensure its agenda is structured to maximise the focus and priorities of the board in the meetings?

Carolyn Campbell For me, the biggest thing about being a director is owning the strategy of the organisation, having the policies to support that and clearly the budget to support that as well. So those three pillars. Therefore the agenda needs to be set in a way that it is strategically orientated to the board for whatever the decision making or discussions that need to happen. And that needs to come forward at the at the front of the meeting so that it's fresh when people start. I respect the fact that directors are the reason their directors usually are they are busy people. So you need to give them that opportunity to have that fresh look at it at the start of the meeting. One of the things I've found is really successful because you also want to provide a whole lot of reports and information to the board, for that reason for their information is that at the back of the agenda, we use a block item type system where we put all the reports and things into that. When the board packs are distributed to the board, they can ask for any of those to come out of the block items and be discussed or further information given. So you sort of providing almost a reference guide with a whole lot of information there, but happy to bring it out into discussion if required otherwise it is provided for that. And I think respectfully, if you can balance the timeframes around that and make sure that the front end of the meeting is to tackle the bigger items and decision making then that's really important too. Often boards meet into the evening. You need to be respectful that people have already perhaps done a day's work in another role so you want to make sure they're clear and have good clarity to make those decisions.

Kate Corkery So we started off talking about board accountability and how that really related to the board doing what it's required to do and what its members expect it to do. What tips can you give for communicating to stakeholders about the organisation's progress and achievements?

Carolyn Campbell This is important because you are representing those members and you're driving the progression of the organisation. So things like interactive presentations if you've got a meeting structure that allows that to happen. To talk about some of the initiatives and how the strategic plans being progressed and what's been what's been able to be undertaken to progress that. Metrics are really important, particularly to match up with the KPIs that are set around the strategic plan. And I think for me, one of the biggest things is also about communicating if there's policy changes as quickly as possible, they may be published on websites, which is where they should be, and links there so they can be kept very current. But if you don't advise people that they've been updated, they're not going to go looking for a new version. So all of that communication is a key part to keeping the information systems flowing of what the board is undertaking and the organisation and how the organisation is growing and progressing through as they tackle their strategic plan and head towards ultimately their goals and vision.

Kate Corkery Thank you, Carolyn, and thank you for joining me on our sports podcast exploring Principles six - the Playbook.

Kate Corkery Thank you for joining me today. If you'd like to access a copy of the Sport Governance Principles, you'll find them on the SportAUS website sportaus.gov.au/governance. If you have any feedback or questions, please email us at sportsgovernance@sportaus.gov.au My name is Kate Corkery and I look forward to you joining me for the next podcast in the Sport Governance Series.

Sport Governance Principles - The Defence

This is a Sport Australia podcast production.

Kate Corkery Hello and welcome to the Sport Governance Podcast series. My name is Kate Corkery and I am the Director of Sport Governance and Strategy at Sport Australia. Over this series we will take a deep dive into the sport governance principles and how they come to life in practice. Each podcast will focus on an individual principle with a special guest joining me to share their experiences and practical advice with respect to that principle.

Kate Corkery In today's episode, we are focusing on Principle seven, the Defence, a system which protects the organisation. To proactively protect the organisation from harm the board ensures the organisation has and maintains robust and systematic processes for managing risk. To discuss principle seven the Defence, I'm joined by Jaquie Scammell.

Kate Corkery Jaquie is a renowned people expert for internal and external relations. Helping organisations remember the great service is not always about the systems and processes, but about the simple everyday interactions you have with real people. Her techniques and tools for engaging and motivating large service teams have evolved from her experience working in organisations such as McDonald's, Wembley National Stadium and Melbourne and Olympic Parks. Jaquie has been serving on the Sport Inclusion Australia Board since 2019 and brings a service mindset to her role within the organisation. Jaquie is a published author of "Service Mindset", which made the top 50 business books for 2018 and "Service Habits", which was published in 2020. Welcome, Jaquie and thank you for joining me to discuss the Defence.

Jaquie Scammell Thank you, Kate. Great to be here.

Kate Corkery The technical definition of risk under the ISO 31,000 is the effect of uncertainty on objectives. How would you define risk in practice though?

Jaquie Scammell Well, in practice, risk is really about weighing up anything that's going to prevent us from meeting our strategic plans or goals, but more importantly, our promises to our stakeholders. Being our members, our customers and so we're continually keeping an eye on that and looking at weighing up the different measures of risk, the different levels of risk and determining what needs to be our core focus more than other parts of running an organisation or a business.

Kate Corkery So when we are looking at those strategic goals and those promises to our stakeholders, risk is usually referred to as negative. Is risk always a bad thing or can be a positive?

Jaquie Scammell Well, I think like everything, there's a really good balance and weighing up, you know, looking at things like the data and what evidence is providing us, but also bringing emotional filters when we make decisions, you know, we've got to make balanced decisions. So risk can bring a balanced, weighted view of how well we're performing as an organisation. And I think in many ways that can be very positive. It encourages us to be open minded. It encourages us to ask questions. The more we do that, the more we're able to eliminate arriving at decisions, thinking we know all the answers and actually keeping an open mind to really what is our reality and what is the reality of our key stakeholders. And I think, you know, if we do a full circle back to risk, that's a healthy way of leading any organisation. So I see it as really positive Kate.

Kate Corkery And if you're a director and you're sitting around a sport board table, how does the board know what its key risks know, what its key challenges and emerging issues are?

Jaquie Scammell Well, you know, we at Sport Inclusion Australia have supported on some brilliant external experts like you good selves at Sport Australia to create independent reviews and help us understand what is our criteria. So I think it's important to start there. Know what your criteria is, what sort of forms your risk assessment, if you like and then the consequences of that. So the scale of each of those key criteria is whether it be your technology, whether it be your governance, whether it be your financial risk, and then understanding the different levels of consequences. So start there and have it really well documented. That's something that I've been extremely impressed with Sport Inclusion Australia, not only good documentation but maintaining that documentation and keeping it up to date.

Kate Corkery That's right. I mean, one of the challenges we have is that you can write really good documentation but then it sits in someone's inbox or on someone's PC. Does the Sport Inclusion Australia board regularly consider some of the risks that you've spoken about - their financial risk, strategic risk, reputational risk, technology risk regularly as a part of its board discussions?

Jaquie Scammell Yeah, we do. And one thing that I think's been really important on our journey is getting close to our stakeholders so as a consequence of that, what we formed was working groups with different stakeholders. And those working groups have all got their terms of reference. But in essence, what we're doing is exactly that. We're continually reviewing the key areas or the key focus areas that we need to focus on as an organisation and staying close to our stakeholders and continually reviewing the relevance, the changing landscape of these risks and getting real time feedback and relevant stories and examples from our stakeholders. Those that are out in the field, playing the sport, working with the athletes, working with the parents in the schools, and we're keeping a much closer eye on the dial. So I thoroughly recommend that process and it's been a brilliant way of inadvertently managing risk. It feels like we're managing performance but actually what we're doing is we're also being extremely mindful of the changes that come up with different parts of risk.

Kate Corkery It's a really fabulous process and a really sort of engaged live process that that Sport Inclusion Australia has gone through. What are the key documents that now sit within the risk management framework?

Jaquie Scammell So we have a risk policy which, given the year we've had 2020, has been recently updated. And it's quite a comprehensive risk policy document. We also, off the back of the Global Games that INAS Global Games last year, that also asked us to step up and make sure all our documentation was very thorough, which is of great benefit. So when there's a risk policy document place, it's kind of like the foundation, if you like of our documentation. And then all of the other regular meetings, like our governance committee meetings, which we put in place a few years ago, our board meetings. And then these working group conversations or meetings, if you like, are all well documented. But I think the key point here is that it's fluid and it refers back to an overarching framework. It refers back to an overarching SWOT that we did a few years ago. We're continually looking at how we're progressing. So the documentation is almost like a progress report in a way to see how well we're performing against those risks that we've identified.

Kate Corkery And so having regard to the framework and those documents and the working groups and process, does the board have confidence that the current systems give them sufficient oversight of risk in order to support its decision making?

Jaquie Scammell Absolutely. And I think it's great again to surround yourself with some fabulous external advisors like your legal counsel and other people that can validate and acknowledge that what we think is real is a true indicator of managing risk. I think it's key to note as well that we've got a really good mix of board members Kate, that come from different backgrounds, different experiences, past, present and emerging in the field of NSOs. And so we bring a whole heap of different lenses and views on risk. And I think that's extremely healthy as a board. The other point that I wanted to make to that gives us an indication that we're tracking well and gives me confidence in our decisions are around risk is that we've recently explored a lot of collaborations. And collaborating with Australian Sporting Alliance and other fantastic cohorts like Blind and Deaf Sports Australia has again raised our efforts and our awareness on how well we're tracking and what progress we're making. And it's sort of strengthened other cohorts around us as well. So, yeah, I feel quite confident that we're managing and measuring risk well.

Kate Corkery Well, now, you've just mentioned there the recently formed Australian Sporting Alliance for People with a Disability and Sport Inclusion Australia is one of nine national sporting organisations for people with a disability who have formed this alliance. And the vision of this alliance is about all Australians having an opportunity to engage in sport and physical activity in a welcoming and inclusive environment. It's an innovative collaboration. It's an exciting collaboration. What is the risk of organisations not looking to collaborate and work together either within a sport or across sport organisations in the current world?

Jaquie Scammell Well, we've gained a lot from the collaborations in the past 12, 18 months particularly this year, when everyone had to innovate and think quite differently about the communication models and the way we were getting out to the people, our key stakeholders, those at the front line. And so the collaboration has been incredibly beneficial. You know, it's shown us a few things. So early on it shows us where we've got strengths and opportunities. And so when we collaborate, we can actually, again raise each other and leverage off each other's strengths and raise each other with the areas of opportunity. And I think there's a huge risk if we don't do that, because we can't always get the key skills and capabilities from people around the table. Sometimes when we need to look out outside our boardroom as such. The other thing that's been extremely effective is the way we we bring our different delivery practices to our key stakeholders. So the way we actually deliver sport and lots of different practices that we can do that with the minimal resources that we have.So when we collaborate we get access to greater resources and access to a greater pond of of funding, so to speak, because when we collaborate, we're stronger and we've got more to offer. So I think the risks of not collaborating is that you potentially limiting the way your delivery model, with the way you deliver the sport. You're potentially limiting your access to certain funding and I also think potentially limiting your strengths and capabilities around a table.

Kate Corkery Absolutely and the advocacy impact of the Australian Sporting Alliance for People with a Disability has already been well felt even in the first couple of months. I guess the other thing that comes to mind here is when you look at Sport Inclusion Australia and their inclusion of people with an intellectual disability into the mainstream community using sport as the medium, why is inclusion in sport so important and what is the risk of not working to make sport more inclusive? And when I talk about risk there risk to society generally, risk to the individual's risk to organisations. Inclusion in sport is just such a critical issue.

Jaquie Scammell It really is. You know, the Australian Government reported last year that more than four million Australians have some form of disability, which is an around 18 per cent of the population. 22% of that is mental or behavioural disorder. So we really are talking about a large component of our population who need and benefit from access to sport. One of our philosophies is Sport Inclusion Australia is that we want to make sure no one is left behind. So the impact of the work that Sport Inclusion Australia does really does impact a large percentage of society as to their friends, their family, their carers. It gives all of these people access to community, to mainstream sport competitions and all of what comes with that. The risk of not having access to these sporting communities and competitions, treating the person as a person and all of their entourage, their family, friends and community that come with that. There's a few things they're customers just like everyone else. So there's a financial risk and the share of wallet, we're all looking for some sort of contribution from society. So I think that there's a financial risk if we don't involve and consider inclusion across all aspects of disability. There's also the mental health that has been a huge element this year, physical health, emotional wellbeing. When people are connected to community and feel like they're not separate and they're not different and they're just like just like you and me when it comes to sport. And sport has the most incredible way of bringing people together and I guess dissolving differences in people. And this is what has a huge impact on making people feel connected. And hasn't it been the year where we've really noticed the importance of social connection?

Kate Corkery Absolutely. Look it's really important that we continue to understand is more risk of not making sport inclusive and that there is lots of support out there for boards to ensure that they understand and can manage some of the practical risks of increasing and diversifying their participation programs in favour of inclusivity. I guess my final question today is around the cultural tone of managing risk. And we know that the role of the board is to set and monitor the culture of the organisation. But the way in which a board deals with culture and risk is important. So what's your view of managing risk, being a part of 'business as usual' and not something that should be separate from operations?

Jaquie Scammell Yeah, I think it's good business. It's good practice to bring risk into your day to day vernacular, your day to day awareness. It's part of the conversation, right. It's not like, let's sit down and have a risk discussion. I think that if you bring risk into a conversation that is proactive, it's putting the person first in the conversation, the needs of the business in the centre of the conversation or the sporting organisation then it helps people rise above thinking about it as risk and actually seeing it as this is good business, it's good practice, and it's actually going to make us better then tomorrow. And don't we all want that in anywhere that we're professionals and we're striving towards a common goal or vision so  sometimes I just say maybe don't talk about the word 'change' if people don't like change and if people find the word 'risk' a little bit off putting, don't use the word risk replace it with something else because it's everywhere. And it's an incredibly important part of doing good business.

Kate Corkery Thank you for those insights, Jaquie hugely valuable. And thank you for joining me to talk about principle seven - the Defence.

Jaquie Scammell Absolute pleasure. Thank you, Kate.

Kate Corkery If you'd like to access a copy of the Sport Governance Principles, you will find them at the SportAUS website, sportaus.gov.au/governance. If you have any feedback or questions, please email us at sportgovernance@sportaus.gov.au. My name is Kate Corkery and I look forward to you joining me for the next podcast in the Sport Governance Series.

Sport Governance Principles – The Best and Fairest

This is a Sport Australia podcast production.

Kate Corkery Hello and welcome to the Sport Governance Podcast series. My name is Kate Corkery and I am the director of Sport, Governance and Strategy at Sport Australia. Over this series, we will take a deep dive into the sport governance principles and how they come to life in practice. Each podcast will focus on an individual principle with a special guest joining me to share their experiences and practical advice with respect to that principle.

Kate Corkery In today's episode, we're focusing on Principle eight, the Best and Fairest. A system for ensuring integrity. An organisation should have measures and protocols to ensure integrity of the sport and safe guard its participants. To discuss the best and fairest we are privileged to joined by David Sharpe, the CEO of the newly formed Sport Integrity Australia. Formed in July 2020, Sport Integrity Australia combines the existing functions of the Australian Sports Anti-Doping Authority, the National Integrity Unit in Sport and the nationally focused integrity functions of Sport Australia. David is a former Assistant Commissioner of the Australian Federal Police and Rugby League player and administrator. David thank you for joining me to discuss the Best and Fairest.

David Sharpe Great and thanks for having me.

Kate Corkery When we talk about integrity, in your experience across your many roles, how would you define the word ‘integrity’?

David Sharpe I’ve heard the word integrity used in many forms, used in many ways and interpreted in many different ways. We’ve seen the Wood Review that used a definition of integrity but what I say is that integrity, if doesn’t look right, doesn’t sound right, doesn’t smell right, err on the side of caution and raise the issue as an integrity matter.

Kate Corkery Integrity in sport, is it only relevant at the elite level or is it relevant all the way through to the community level?

David Sharpe Integrity in sport is critical that it is addressed and understood from the grass roots from the starting of participants in sport, young children right through to the elite levels.

Kate Corkery What is the role of Sport Integrity Australia in terms of supporting organisations to implement frameworks which embed integrity in the thinking of the board and in the actions of the operations?

David Sharpe As a new agency that kicked off in July, we have a regulatory role. The approach has not been from a ‘policing’ perspective or a big stick regulation. It has been about helping sports understand their requirements, put in place policies and procedures and be able to meet the requirements of those policies. Our view on that is that if we don’t help sports understand complicated policies and implement them effectively, we’ve failed, not the sport. At the end of the day, it is our role to make sure sports understand the requirements of certain policies and to help them implement them effectively to protect sport.

Kate Corkery So what advice would you give a sport to develop a framework which is consistent with the requirements of Sport Integrity Australia?

David Sharpe One of the key bodies of work that we are working now to deliver is a national integrity framework which streamlines the approach to sport integrity threats. What it does is it sets out the expectations for behaviours within the sport, participants etc and how sports might better manage from a reporting, investigating or identifying breaches. What we are doing is delivering to sports, what we will deliver within the framework is deliver the best practice policy templates that are streamlined and consistent across all sports. What that does is simplifies it basically. There are so many policies and requirements of sports, we want to take forward a framework so every sport can learn from each other, work with each other but simplify it in a way that it is understood from grass roots right through to board level. Understand the requirements and in doing that then sport can get on with the business of focusing on sport and participation and we (SIA) will help with the frameworks to deal with the integrity issues.

Kate Corkery Examples of sport integrity issues that we have seen front and back page of the news here in Australia include match fixing and corruption, anti-doping, illicit substances, member protection, safeguarding children – I mean they are just a few examples, what would you say to boards who say, no I don’t think we have got any integrity issues, or any serious integrity issues in our sport?

David Sharpe There are a lot of things I’d say ‘on the record’ and probably some things I’d say ‘off the record’ that I’d say to a board that takes that approach. I think boards need to have integrity embedded into the agenda of every meeting as a key risk and a key priority to address. It’s like cyber security, anyone or board that tells me that cyber security is not a critical risk for that organisation and protecting athlete information should certainly reassess what role they play because protecting athlete information is one of the most critical things that a board could do and be responsible for and cyber security is a big issue. It fits under that broader integrity banner as well. No one is immune from the integrity threats that we are seeing around the world. Australia has very much a combined approach through law enforcement, to sporting bodies, to agencies such as ourself (SIA) to protect sport and we do very well. It would be very naïve for anyone to think that sports aren’t vulnerable, aren’t exposed. The more we see resources at the highest levels of sports through targeting of these organised crime infiltrations of sporting organisations at the national level, the more you will see organised crime or people trying to influence or get into the sports, will see it pushed down to the lower levels where there is less integrity response, less spotlight on those sports.

Kate Corkery Can you give us some examples of where we have seen in Australia an infiltration of organised crime just to help listeners understand that you don’t have to be a big organisation or a highly popular sport for this to happen?

David Sharpe It is always publicized at the highest levels of organised crime motorcycle gangs hanging around higher profile professional athletes. You see that regularly, you see the drugs in sport which it is not around using of cocaine, it’s where you actually get the cocaine from. That is the issue that leaves an athlete exposed or vulnerable but we’ve seen over the course of a number of years, recently we saw Victoria look at esports. Organised crime and match fixing within esports at lower level. We’ve seen tennis addressing integrity in this country but down at the lower levels as well. We saw lower level infiltration of match fixing in lower level country tennis tournaments at very young ages. Sport at all levels is exposed and particularly some of the big issues now in the technological world of streaming. We see a lot of the non-professional sports being streamed all over the world. Wherever you’ve got streaming in a market then it would be a market you wouldn’t expect. There is a responsibility for everyone right across the board and as I said the more we focus on a high level the more we will push down lower.

Kate Corkery That highlights the importance of education and the role of the board and executives in developing and monitoring adherence to education for athletes, for participants and for stakeholders in regards to integrity rules, standards, expected behaviours, disclosure – what resources or support can Sport Integrity Australia provide with respect to education?

David Sharpe Education is critical in everything we do. In awareness for athletes, what supplements they are taking and what their behaviours are and very much the same approach to the integrity framework that we will roll out. My three years previously at ASADA and now with Sport Integrity Australia, it has been very clear to me that a number of CEOs and a number of sporting boards aren’t aware of the policies that they sit on and are responsible for implementing. They aren’t aware of some of the conditions and rules or requirements of those policies. That is why we are trying to bring all the policies together in a national integrity framework, simplify them, make the streamlined but also when we roll them out, we will help the sports implement them and understand their requirements under those policies. That will be a very different understanding for an athlete in a sport right through to a board members requirements to understand. The best thing we can do is having everyone understanding them and prepared for when the crisis hits, not after the crises. Quite often when the crises hits and there is a lack of understanding, we’ve seen these issues then played out publically in the media because of the lack of understanding and comments that were made naively. All that serves to do is impact the mental health of an athlete by matters being dragged out publically. So we certainly will be rolling out education and understanding at all levels of those policies so that people are pretty clear that when the crisis hits, we are ready to respond.

Kate Corkery You started in our first couple of questions around the integrity framework of going beyond documents.  So embedding that cultural practice throughout the organisation. When we talk about participation in sport, we want to know that when our children participate in sport that it is a safe environment. How can sporting organisations actively and openly promote a culture of an environment being safe for children and vulnerable people?

David Sharpe I don’t like to put it in these terms but if you talk about marketing and brand, the best marketing for your sport is marketing the fact that your sport is safe. If there is an issue, if something does arise - and it will, something will always come up – not trying to hide from it. From my experience, getting out on the front foot and saying we have identified an issue, we’ve addressed that issue and we are protecting our sport. What comes with that is confidence of sponsors, confidence of partners to want to be in that sport because you are transparent. That is one of the critical issues. If I look at my involvement say with Ten Pin bowling to give you an example, everyone focuses on big sports, but what Ten Pin bowling did was quite incredible in their response, their transparent response to some child protection issues that they have had recently. The way they approached their policies around child protection and the way they pro-actively got on the front foot with their membership around those issues has been transparent. In fact that is for me, Ten Pin bowling is the model response in that it is open, transparent and sends a message that we will address the issues and we will be transparent about that and is critical for sports to understand.

Kate Corkery So picking up there that there is a role for the board in reflecting and reviewing the experiences in other sports when a breach of integrity occurs, and identify those learnings and take them forward as an opportunity to do better. Are you in a position that within your team people who can share learnings or support boards through these issues?

David Sharpe Yeah absolutely when we roll these out we are going to make a commitment to help sports implement them and understand their requirements through education whether it be online or face to face. I think that is probably one of the most important things that we could do. We’re also, there are a number of forums where, so far I have been able to present to about 60 odd of the 98 CEOs that have policies. I have spoken personally to each one of them. I’ve learnt a lot from them but there are also a number of forums where those CEOs come together. They are really important because they are the networks that share experiences, share the learnings. What we are trying to do is tie into those sorts of networks and keep our framework streamlined and simplified so that the learnings are, you know if it is a consistent approach across the board, the learnings will be different across the board but they will be shared more broadly and sports can get ahead of the game understanding what the emerging threats are or what the threats in some sports are and how they might relate to others. So it is critical the CEO network, the Integrity networks and all the sports are aligned with us.

Kate Corkery Excellent. Good advice. David thank you for joining me to discuss the Best and Fairest today and best of luck in bedding the important work of Sport Integrity Australia in through 2021.

David Sharpe Thank you and thanks for having me.

Kate Corkery If you'd like to access a copy of the sport governance principles. You'll find them at the SportAUS website - sportaus.gov.au/governance. If you have any feedback or questions, please email us at sportsgovernance@ausport.gov.au  My name is Kate Corkery and I look forward to you joining me for the next podcast in the Sport Governance Series.

Sport Governance Principles – The Game is Changing

This is a Sport Australia podcast production.

Kate Corkery Hello and welcome to the Sport Governance Podcast series. My name is Kate Corkery and I am am the Director of Sport Governance and Strategy at Sport Australia. Over this series, we will take a deep dibve into the sport governance principles and how they come to life in practice. Each podcast will focus on an individual principle with a special guest joining me to share their experiences and practical advice with respect to that principle.

Kate Corkery In today's episode, we are focusing on the final section of the sport governance principles - The Game is Changing, contemporary and stable governance structures. This section highlights that structure is an enabler for supporting the way national and state sporting organisations collaborate. How they share strategies, streamline administration, achieve consistent constitutions governing structures and behaviours which in turn decrease complexity and increase agility. Sports can achieve their purpose and deliver timely responses to market needs. Joining me today is James Sutherland, current CEO of Golf Australia. James has a long and distinguished career in the sport industry, having previously been the CEO of Cricket Australia from 2001 to 2018. He currently sits on the board of cricket's T20 World Cup 2022. The AFL's Geelong Football Club. The Advisory Council to Sport Integrity Australia and is a member of the Champions of Change Coalition. Welcome, James, and thank you for joining me.

James Sutherland Pleasure. Good to join you, Kate.

Kate Corkery Well, this is certainly a topic full of opportunity and challenge and I'm really looking forward to getting a sense of your experience over this podcast. But I did want to start with some context. There is increasing evidence that the historical structural model for sport lacks agility. It doesn't meet the needs of our changing community and the the expectation of participants, spectators, partners and other consumers. As a result, the position of traditional sport in Australian culture is being challenged, particularly by recreational activities but also the rise of the Internet and on-demand consumerism. More than ever, Australians are choosing non sport options for their physical activity. In that context what is your experience in terms of modern Australia's expectations of sport and how those expectations changing?

James Sutherland Well, I think for a start, the expectations are high and they're only getting higher. I think from that perspective, I meant to drill down on that a little bit there's an increasing focus on the belief that sport should be providing opportunities. Opportunities for the broader community and serving the broader community and issues around fairness and equality, for example, are things that are pervading and expected perhaps far more than more than they were. I think there's also an element that comes with that. With that opportunity, opportunities to play, opportunities to succeed - as in to get better and be supported by coaching, but then opportunities to thrive as well at a performance level. So going into that high performance. Those expectations are there and they're getting higher all the time. And with it I think, comes an expectation around the administration of the game that the public just expects sport to get that right. Don't bother us with all of that detail about the administration. You just have got to get your stuff sorted and get it done. And to some extent, that's an unreasonable expectation because not all sports are resourced as well as the big ones that generate revenue from media rights and what have you. But it still comes back to that core challenge and something that pervades and, as I say, come back to the question - there's an expectation that is only getting higher.

Kate Corkery So we end up talking about modern and contemporary governance structures, and that means changing. In your experience, why is it so challenging to achieve these structural changes?

James Sutherland Well, first, whenever I've faced challenges with change, I've always resorted to a quote that I like that is attributed to Robert Kennedy, who was a US senator and obviously part of the Kennedy clan. He said "progress is a nice word, but change is its motivator and change has its enemies". And I think that you can get caught up in the word "change". But really what he highlights there is that it's actually about progress. It's actually about getting better. And we all sort of like to think that we've all got our eyes on continuous improvement and how our sport can get better. But it does involve change and for various reasons, lots of reasons which you were alluding to in the question. There are obstacles to change that are obstacles to progress. And I think it's a really important and fundamental starting point when you consider how you try to progress and the great dreams that you may have for your sport to think about the involvement of change and how you can bring people along with you. And perhaps we can take this conversation a little bit further into those reasons why there might be obstacles.

Kate Corkery I guess one of those obstacles is the traditional federated system of governing sport in Australia, which has not changed or using your language has not progressed significantly in over 100 years - is embedded within our Australian sporting organisations. So that takes us to our current sport leaders and our future sport leaders and I mean at all levels of sport - clubs, state, national, what do we need to continue to progress?

James Sutherland You know, I mean, we've seen, you know, the way that we're governed, not just in sport, but, you know, in political life and what have you. We've seen that every day. We're still very much operating within a federal structure. And there's been a great in the last 12 months, you know, with the pandemic, a great illustration of we've resorted back to federation and the power of states. And it's never been more apparent in the last 12 months than any time in the last decade or so how that all works. And some of that sort of rises to the surface in sport, as we know on a pretty regular basis. There is a lot of history and people in Australian sport have a great awareness, you know, people who are playing roles as servants of the sport, either as volunteers or as paid employees they have a line of sight and never really lose sight of where they've come from and who their constituents are. And that in itself can be a significant barrier to progress and change. But nonetheless, we bring ourselves together for the sake of the sport and we try to bring that forward. And I think the other thing with that is, you know, the bigger picture being a part of the bigger picture and growth of the sport and the performances at international level and the way in which the sport appeals to spectators and fans and what have you is something that can galvanise people and people can get behind.

Kate Corkery One of the things about structural change is it is about people. It's led by people. It's championed by people. It's sort of to a certain extent, stopped by people. It's not easy and it's not quick. And we've experienced in sport that it shouldn't just be any one party in isolation that is in charge of or responsible for accountable for the change. It requires the commitment of national sporting organisations and state sporting organisations to achieve that common purpose of strengthening, as you say, the whole sport. What lessons have you learnt through being involved in structural change processes?

James Sutherland I think I mean, my feeling around this is it's really important for a sport to have a clear vision and purpose as to why it exists and to get the stakeholders to agree on that common ground. I remember in cricket, we had a vision statement, which everyone sort of had a line of sight to, which was 'Australia's favourite sport and a sport for all Australians'. And so whatever you did in the sport, wherever you were in the hierarchy or the structure and wherever you were geographically, you still had a line of sight back to that. And in golf today, we you know, we talk all the time about more Australians playing more golf. If that happens and we're all responsible for growing the game and those opportunities everyone in the industry is a beneficiary of that. And I think that goes to the point of common ground and finding that, you know, realising that we have a lot more things in common about the success and how the sport thrives than we do in opposition as we work through change. And I remember when we were working in cricket, we had Pippa Grange, who you may know Kate is, I think, a behavioural psychologist and a bit of an expert in sports culture. But she was doing a workshop, I remember, with our management team, Cricket Australia management team and state CEOs one day and she just said off the cuff, we all love cricket, don't we? And we all want it to be great. So let's talk about that. And I think these sort of conversations perhaps aren't had enough or not, at least at the front end of difficult transformational projects and change. Let's talk about why we want our sport to be great and talk about what its potential is and then get into the detail of what the obstacles are. Think about what does success look like and then work through a process of how we get there.

Kate Corkery Quite often I'm asked and I'm sure you're probably asked, Is there a single right governance structure?

James Sutherland Many may think there is, but my personal view is no. And I also think with that comes the comment and qualification Kate that I think it's a journey. I mean, this whole thing about governance and the administration of sport and how we improve is a journey. There's no end point in this. And there's a constant, you know, oscillation to try to find an equilibrium that works for all of the stakeholders because our whole community is changing all the time. The environment is changing. Our competitor relationships are changing. And and so to that end, we need to continue to adapt and we need to continue to keep a line of sight to, this is where these vision statements and purpose statements come in, to continue to I guess look at that light on the hill and keep finding that sort of sometimes windy road to success so that the sport can thrive.

Kate Corkery And you keep coming back to that common purpose and vision, once you've got that line of sight and you've got that lighthouse on the top of the hill, having the ability to prepare a national picture on a range of functions for sport is really considered to be at the forefront as an outcome of good governance and reflective of a strong, united sport. Have you experienced this done well?

James Sutherland Well, I'd like to think that in cricket we went through some significant transformational change in cricket. I think one of my learnings from that was you go through that process and you think that when you get to the constitutional reform and everyone votes at a general meeting to change the way that we're governed, that you're there and you've arrived and there's a new almost a new dawn. But it doesn't work like that at all. What happens in that process is that - golf is going through that at the moment where we are bringing our states together under a One Golf banner. People take when they when they do subscribe to constitutional reform, members take a leap of faith. They are believing in something that has been put forward largely in concept. And to that end, it still needs to be proven and it needs to be proven every day. You need to build confidence. You need systems of reporting lines and communication. That is really important. I think back to my time in cricket. One of the things I inherited was a trial integration with Women's Cricket Australia and what was then the Australian Cricket Board. So that's only 20 years ago. But women's cricket in Australia was separately run, had its own board, completely separate company and Australian Cricket Board, which was largely the male side of the game, was the same. And one of the things with that I learnt was that this trial integration, which was a two year period which women's cricket was actually chaired by former Governor General Dame Quentin Bryce. But her leadership in that process was incredible. And so her confidence and belief but also she brought the stakeholders on the women's side along who were quite, I guess in some ways sceptical about it. But they believed in the integration, the trial integration proved the leap of faith. And I'd say reflecting on what's happened in the 18 years since, you know, the women's game in Australia has significantly thrived under that since that merger took place.

Kate Corkery Oh, look, it certainly certainly has. And I mean, I was present at the final of the Women's T20 World Cup in Melbourne in March of last year of 2020. And being in that environment, it's very obvious that when you look at the stewardship and the leadership and those leaps of faith, as you describe them, just how extraordinary they can be in terms of impact. And I guess that sort of leads me to a question around opportunity. I mean, you've given us a live opportunity there of what can happen when sport adopts contemporary governance structures and has that leadership, which is really infinite in its vision. What are the other opportunities you've seen arise out of contemporary governance structures?

James Sutherland One of the things that I've always felt is that under a more contemporary governance structure, you end up fishing in a much deeper pond or a deeper sea. There has been a tendency, I guess, in the past for sports to give roles and important roles in the governance of the game to people that have served for a long time. And people and it's almost a tour of duty and at the end of that, there's the reward of being on the national board or something like that. But if that's, you know, that's the sole qualification or criterion by which people get there, then clearly the talent is going to be somewhat limited. Now, that's not to say you don't want people that have vast experience in the game on your board. Absolutely you do. But at the same time, you need a balance of skills and a different sort of demographic. And that's where I think one of the benefits in these modern governance principles, we see sports now being able to choose from a much broader and diverse sectors of the population. And, you know, one of the things I say is that you don't even need to be passionate about the individual sport, because I think that diversity of opinion and view can be quite significant in helping the sport to progress. Because I think one of the real keys for sport today, amongst the various challenges of competition, not just from traditional sports, but as you pointed out in your intro Kate, from all sorts of other leisure pursuits. How do we make ourselves relevant, continue to be relevant in modern day society? And I think that's the big challenge for Australian sports. And if all we're doing is having a conversation amongst people that are rusted on passionate fans of that particular sport, then the conversation is going to go round and round. We're not really going to bring some new thoughts to the table.

Kate Corkery I think we'll leave it and challenge those who are listening to this podcast series to ask their boards and their colleagues and their committee's that exact question. How is it that we remain relevant in modern Australian sport? James, thank you so much for your insights on this challenging and important topic and appreciate your time.

James Sutherland Pleasure, Kate. No problem at all.

Kate Corkery If you'd like to access a copy of the sport governance principles, you'll find them at the SportAUS website - sportaus.gov.au/governance. If you have any feedback of questions, please email us at sportgovernance@ausport.gov.au My name is Kate Corkery and I look forward to you joining me for the next podcast in the Sport Governance series.