Transcript

Brooke Kneebush [00:00:08] Hello and welcome to our Coaching and Officiating podcast series. My name is Brooke Kneebush and I'm the Senior Officiating Advisor at the Australian Sports Commission. I'm coming to you from the lands of the Boon Wurrung and Woi Warrung people in Victoria. Along with a special guest each episode, I'm here to talk about some important officiating topics. The theme for today's podcast is How you officiate, a modern approach to officiating. This includes preparing to officiate, decision-making and time management, all with a participant centred approach.

Today I'm joined by Cheryl Jenkins, who is the Australian Open Chief Umpire and Chief Umpire at Tennis Australia. From humble beginnings as a line umpire in the 1990s, her officiating experience has taken her around the globe to some of the world's biggest sporting events. She has officiated at all four Grand Slams, Commonwealth and Olympic Games. In addition, she's an educator with the International Tennis Federation and here in Australia supports the development of tennis officials from community level through to high performance. Thank you for joining us, Cheryl.

Cheryl Jenkins [00:01:15] Thank you Brooke. And I'd like to acknowledge that I'm coming from the lands of the Yugambeh people here in Brisbane.

Brooke Kneebush [00:01:20] Fabulous. Thanks for that. So, Cheryl, can you start by telling us about your journey in sport, how you came to be an international tennis official? Tennis Australia and Australian Open Chief Umpire, and your current involvement from community through to international officiating.

Cheryl Jenkins [00:01:35] Oh my gosh. Well, I came a well come from a bit of a tennis family. So, tennis was that the sport that we all played even though we all did other sports as kids? Tennis was the, the common sport. So even grandparents, aunts, uncles, cousins. It was definitely the family sport. And so, my dad actually, through his work, started officiating at Milton. And one of the guys there got it, got dad involved. Then I got my turn to be a ball girl, you know, at Milton as well. And then I guess my brothers and as we got older, moved into officiating and there's like, oh, you know, I get to the age of, you know, towards the end of high school, part time job. One more. We're going to tennis courts anyway, so I might as well start officiating to get some extra money, pocket money on the side. I then could see some people that I really admired in officiating. Donna Kelso is one who's a WTA supervisor. We became good friends when I was still ball girl, and we're still friends today, and I admired her because she was a line umpire and I could see her be a chair umpire, started travelling the world. I'm like, oh, that sounds cool. I'd like to do that and watch all the awesome things that she would do. And I guess that was kind of my then role model. When time came to think about family, it was like, oh, I still want to do stuff. So juggled chair umpiring and babies for a little while, and then I was like, okay, I need something else. And so, why I went down the chief umpire pathway. So that's where the management side now of officials comes into it, a more the education side as well. So yeah, just from humble beginnings at Redcliffe to now I get to, to travel the world at times and yeah be off to Wimbledon in a couple of weeks.

Brooke Kneebush [00:03:15] What a great journey and thank you for sharing that and that element of family and doing it with your, your brothers and your dad, that is such a massive part of sport, and it's really fabulous when families get to enjoy this sport together.

Cheryl Jenkins [00:03:29] It is, and it's something I see people who tend to be in it longer have all had some sort of family connection, and it's just not only your personal family, but then you also then create friendships that become like family of people that you progress with. So, I also have a couple of fellow female officials that, we went through our white badge school together, our bronze badge school together, travelling the world together. And yeah, still mates. You know, we don't live in the same place, but, you know, we’re still mates and we still catch up. And yeah, we're actually trying to arrange a catch-up during Wimbledon qualifying now.

Brooke Kneebush [00:04:06] Wow. Friends for life. And amazing that you were able to juggle parenthood, motherhood, alongside all that as well. And actually we’re branching into my next question, really. So, you you've been involved in officiating for over 30 years. You've talked about those friendships and the travel. What are some of the other reasons that you do it? Why do you keep coming back, and what motivates you to be the best that you can be?

Cheryl Jenkins [00:04:30] I think to be honest, it's the people that you come across and meet because I guess officiating, that's what brings us together. But we all come from different walks of life. You know, officiating is our common purpose. But, you know, there's teachers, there's doctors I've met FBI agents. You know, all these crazy people like, you know, crazy as in, like, awesome things that they do. Scientists, you know, really intelligent people. And what do we love to do? We love to be on a tennis court and officiate and at times call a ball in or out.

Brooke Kneebush [00:05:03] Actually, it's interesting you say those people from all those different professions because I wonder which came first, the chicken or the egg, because sometimes the skills of officiating that you develop while you're being educated and learning and practising officiating can really contribute to those other aspects of your life as well.

Cheryl Jenkins [00:05:19] So I think there are lots of skills we can learn in our other life that then translate across well into being a good official, and that could be across all sports to be honest, not just tennis.

Brooke Kneebush [00:05:29] And not just officiating either, could be coaching or could be as a player or athlete.

Cheryl Jenkins [00:05:34] Exactly.

Brooke Kneebush [00:05:35] So again, you've started to touch on, on some of this, but I imagine it can be really quite demanding physically and mentally to, to be an official, whether it's at community level or at that peak international level. What are some of those demands on officials, and can you give us a bit of a, an idea of what goes on when you're officiating at a community event?

Cheryl Jenkins [00:05:59] So for us, when we talk about community level, we call that competitive play in tennis. So that's a local weekend tournament that you'll, you'll see. I think that the physical demands there for officials is, what people may not realise is those officials can be on the ground from eight hours to 12, ten hours to 12 hours to 14 hour days and then back up the next day and do it again. And depending on the number of days of the tournament, you can do it over four days back-to-back. And that's long hours standing outside in the weather. So yes, we may not be running physically on a, on a field like they do in some other sports or on a court, but then on those sports, they just go to do that match and usually leave, whereas we're there for the whole day. So yeah, so that can be quite hard for officials, and you know, think about out there, 30 plus degrees heat here in Brisbane 90% humidity most days, it feels like. So that can be physically quite draining but draining obviously in a different way, so that can be tough for officials.

Brooke Kneebush [00:07:00] I imagine there are times when you need to diffuse potentially volatile situations. What type of I guess skills does an official need and how do they need to engage with the participants before something happens, or if they do need to diffuse a situation like that?

Cheryl Jenkins [00:07:18] I guess it's just understanding what's happened. We, we do have rules in place that, you know, for non-umpired matches of of sets that they can follow as a, as a guide to help them work through a problem. Quite often it can be the kids have lost the score. How do we resolve actually what the score is, or the other one will be. They're deciding whether the ball is actually in or out. And obviously they disagree. So, it's going through the process of how we resolve that. So, there are some, some steps in place to help them work through that. So, it's not so bad. I guess one of the biggest challenges can be at times, very helpful parents who are very passionate about their children, and it's how they manage keeping the parents calm while the kids go out there and enjoy their game. So that can be a tough one, because when you step onto the court, that can be an easy thing to resolve because there's a very clear process of what they need to do. Whereas sometimes the hard stuff can actually happen off court and they need to resolve that.

Brooke Kneebush [00:08:19] And is their opportunity to engage with the stakeholders, whether it be the the players or the spectators or the other organisers of the event, to perhaps set a scene, try and establish a culture where everyone's respectful of each other.

Cheryl Jenkins [00:08:35] They are at the community level, competitive play level. It's very there's a lot of conversations that can just happen organically around the courts. You know, even starts with just saying hello and I guess becomes that familiar face. Oh, there's Brooke again. She said it this week. Oh, this, you know, you know, become that familiarity of seeing someone and then that builds rapport, builds respect. And you move on from just the hello conversation to oh how how's you know Tom playing today. You know, it can just grow organically. And you know and I think that's always nice to see when those, respect grows both ways of you know at that can be community play level.

Brooke Kneebush [00:09:16] And I mentioned that rapport could be really great for the players to have that familiar face. If they've got some nerves, it might be reassuring for them to see someone that they're familiar with.

Cheryl Jenkins [00:09:28] Absolutely. And I guess if they're going through a tough time, it might be someone that they can just go and confide in that's, you know, not Mum or Dad or the coach. It's just someone different. And I think that's, that's important for the kids to know that the officials are there helping to create that safe environment for them, not just on the court, but also off the court as well.

Brooke Kneebush [00:09:47] That's actually a part of the role of officials at that community level, that education element for the participants or for the players, isn't it? Because sometimes they're still learning the rules and they'll come across situations they haven't experienced before.

Cheryl Jenkins [00:10:02] It's very much an education process because you could be at a tournament one week, and you may have people who've been playing tournaments for a year, but you could have someone there on their very first day. So, it is constant education, and I think that's probably a driver of why people keep coming back to it, because, oh, now I get to help someone else. But it's not just the kids, it's also the parents. Because for the parents, this is, for many of them, a whole new world. Like a lot of them don't come from a tennis background. So yes, so there is a lot of education, not just on the rules, but also just etiquette in general.

Brooke Kneebush [00:10:38] For sure. Now, can you tell me a little bit about a routine that an official might have, even at that international level, perhaps there's some things that people at the community level could learn from that.

Cheryl Jenkins [00:10:50] So I know some of our top chair umpires, some of them would like to go to a very quiet corner before the match. And they will go through, I've got my coin, you know, I've got all the tools that they need for their job, which is obviously very relevant also at the community level as well. You also need all your tools to your job, whether that's your coin, you whistle, you tape measure whatever you need. You need to make sure you have that routine. If I go back to myself, one of my things was always, have to go to the toilet for each match because you don't want to get out there for a long match and be like, oh, I should have gone for only in the first set. I'm still here for another couple of sets. That's part of what a chair umpire will do. But some are happy to, to have conversations in the lounge and, and then just go straight to their match. Others that will go and find a quiet corner, gather their thoughts, especially before those big matches and then go and do their job. But, but they are very professional and it's actually quite amazing to watch them. And I guess one thing we also do in Australia, which to my knowledge, we're the only ones who do this, is we also have, a sports psychologist who comes and joins us, and it's actually nice to watch the chair umpires, whether they're Australian or the internationals, all go and take and have a conversation with John whether that's in the, the umpires lounge or they go for a walk and have a coffee. But and I think that's one of the things we like to do for our officials to help with their wellbeing. And looking after them is provide that opportunity. And we also do that for our Australian officials year-round - access to, to a sports psychologist. I think it's just around having someone who's a bit removed from the sport and from the day-to-day runnings of things, just for you to just go have a conversation. Hey, I experienced this. Do you have some other strategies of how I could have handled it that are not necessarily tennis related? But I guess it comes back to those people skills that we were talking about earlier, conflict management. Because conflict management is not just a sport thing that's life. So, it's made some of those life skills that John can help them navigate through.

Brooke Kneebush [00:12:54] What a great resource to have. Let's talk now about decision making, because I think what spectators often don't realise is that officials look like they're just sitting there not doing much. And yet there's a lot going on in their mind and there are so many decisions actually taking place, but there's only a few that actually get called because the official has decided it's not requiring a call. Do you have a routine? I imagine it's become kind of gut instinct by now, but a routine that you sort of follow to make and process decisions?

Cheryl Jenkins [00:13:29] Absolutely a routine. There's a routine that we educate officials, like those who are training to be chair umpires on, on the routine of how you start the point. You know from watching the server at the beginning, watching the feet, checking the ball, so there is very much a routine and within that routine, there's lots of decisions that need to be made. You know, when do you stop watching the server to check track ball at the net, to watch the ball, to then make sure you haven't missed the foot fault if you're the only chair umpire. There's a lot of things that, yeah, like you said, will happen instinctively, the more experienced you have. Decision-making, whether that's, you know, it can be even competitive play. The decision can be for the referee and the supervisors. Do I stand near courts two and three to observe those plays? Or do I need to go to court four and five? So there's a lot of things of just understanding what's the feel for the sport, for the match at that time and that, that goes across all sports, I think. So, it's not just the, the chair umpire on court having to decide, you know, the player is starting to bounce the racket. Is that racket abuse or is it. You know what. Brooke. Can you just keep your racket in your hand? A conversation at the change of ends? Or does it need to be a code violation? So, there will be lots of subtle things. Do we just need to say, hey, Brooke, just hold on to your racket. Or do we need to, you know what? You've gone too far - straight to the code violations. But. And that can also happen as a competitive play. And, the supervisor might go up to the fence and say, hey, Brooke, you might need to keep your racket in your hand. So, anything can happen on the big match as well. So lots of subtle things that will happen that people won't see. And the more experience you have, the more you'll become aware of when to step in and when not to.

Brooke Kneebush [00:15:21] So there's a lot that you have to think about, but even when you are as prepared as you can be, I can imagine whether it's standing there for 10 or 12 hours or eight hours a day, or sitting in the chair in the beating sun, that it could be really easy to become fatigued and perhaps lose concentration even. Have you got some tips on how you maintain the stamina to keep pushing through and stay focused despite all of that?

Cheryl Jenkins [00:15:52] I think if I'm looking at community player level, I think it's just being constantly present around the courts and walking around the courts like don't stay stationary. I think that that's becomes your downfall. Just, you know. And it's that balance of, I think, for our local referees of knowing when to step onto the court and when not to. Which is a bit of a balancing act. At the high level, one little trick I used to have in my court bag, little mints. So sometimes you need that little sugar, little fix. I think it's about people identifying for themselves. What is it I need to do for me to help me get through my day? Is it? Do I need to drink more water? Do I need to maybe have a sports drink? Because, I feel I’m losing, I’m sweating a lot. I need to replenish some, some salts in my body. Also, as a chair umpire at the change of ends, you'll get the moment after everything thing’s calmed down. You may get 20s or so. Wiggle your toes in your shoes. Stretch, you know, give you feel a little, you know, think about sitting in an aeroplane, which we quite often do. You know how they teach you to do your little foot exercises to stretch around? You can do those little things, you know, stretch your shoulders, turn. So, there's subtle little things you do. Obviously, you can't get out of the chair and do, you know, ten star jumps. But there’s little movements you can do in the chair to, to keep you alert.

Brooke Kneebush [00:17:14] Great, great advice. Thank you. Now we were talking about line umpires, and it occurred to me that technology is increasingly becoming a part of tennis. Can, can you tell me a little bit about the different technologies that have been introduced over your time in tennis?

Cheryl Jenkins [00:17:31] In my time, we've had the old Cyclops, which was a beam that just went across only the service line, but obviously the biggest one that most people at the professional level will identify with is the live ELC, so electronic line calling. Which is obviously now when it's a live version, replaces line umpires. But there's also still the version with, the challenge system when we still have line umpires on court. At the community level, we have equipped many of our referees with body cameras, and this is a camera that hangs around the neck and it's there that, you know, if a dispute were to get, you know, significantly enraged. And right then it comes down to the vision. Not just what the referee said, not just what say a parent said. Because quite often, it's usually the more emotional conversations tend to be happening off the court. And it's to help deter those conversations and just calm people down. But it also means that if that situation gets escalated to the tribunal, we now have video footage to be able to decipher exactly what happened. It's actually been quite a positive thing because it's actually really helped to calm down many situations that perhaps in the past would have escalated.

Brooke Kneebush [00:18:53] And ultimately, it's about the players.

Now let's have a think about reflection. So, you mentioned that your officials do have access at times to a psychologist, but often and particularly at the community level, we need to manage our wellbeing ourselves, but also our professional development, our personal growth and reflection’s a really powerful way for officials to prioritise themselves in that way. How do you reflect yourself on your officiating and what benefit have you seen it to be over your career?

Cheryl Jenkins [00:19:27] I'm a bit of an old school girl. I'm a paper and pen diary girl. So I even during the Australian Open. I'm always walking around with a notebook and pen and just jotting down things because I find if I get to the end of the day, I'll be like, oh, what was that I meant to write down? So, I'm very much writing things down. And that's not just for my own self-reflection. It's also things that I think about. Oh, that worked well today. We need to remember that for next time or, or something's happened during the day. Oh, I hadn't thought of that. How do we improve that for the following day? Or is it something that we need to note down for the report at the end? This happened. We need to problem solve a solution for next year. So yeah, I'm very much - write things down and it's probably something I do encourage officials to do. Obviously, the younger generation, maybe it's writing it down direct onto their phones or onto their computers, and that's okay. I think whatever's going to work for you, I do think it's important to write things down, whether that's electronically or handwriting. And you go back and reflect on it and go. And I think one thing I like to say to be, yes, you make a decision. Walk away afterwards and go - did that work out well, or what could I have done better next time? I think it's about people asking themselves, what could I have done differently? And maybe sometimes there is nothing you could do differently and that's actually okay. But if there is a learning opportunity in there, take that opportunity and maybe go speak to someone else. Hey Phil, this happened on this day. This was my decision. Is there anything different I could have done? I think I do say to people that the dumb question is the one you don't ask. And I really think that's because sometimes people are afraid to ask a question, which I think’s sad. I think just ask it. You may not always like the answer you get, because it may differ from what you had hoped you would hear. But I think it's really important to ask questions because that will really help with your learning.

Brooke Kneebush [00:21:30] And I love the way you talked also about reflecting on the things that did go well, because sometimes we can always revert to the things that didn't go so well and really beat ourselves up over it. But actually, we probably did a whole lot of really great things as well.

Cheryl Jenkins [00:21:44] Yeah, I think sometimes, you know, you beat yourself up over that one decision that maybe yes, it did escalate, but then you've already made four other that were awesome or, you know, whatever it may be, maybe you've made 20 decisions prior that were fantastic. So yes, take the learnings from that one and then apply it to the rest, and then you'll do just fine.

Brooke Kneebush [00:22:06] Great. Now finally, while officiating can be challenging at times, it's also really rewarding and, that that's really why we do it. Is there one really rewarding experience that you've had as an official that you wanted to share with our audience?

Cheryl Jenkins [00:22:23] You know, I get little buzzes out of watching, especially the new officials come through, and then they achieve their goals, and they get really excited. I guess that's probably where I'm at now, is watching now the next generation come through and helping them and, and even going off to China a few years ago and, and helping someone the first year be an assistant. And then the next year she got to the school and progress. So yeah. So, the idea was always to go get her to be a chief umpire. So it was nice watching that, taking her from, from her P, from her L plates to her P plates to Open plates. You know, I guess that's probably the way to put it. So that's always nice when you get to have those moments. Listen, I'm quite fortunate in my officiating journey that there's been lots of nice moments along the way. And. I'm pretty lucky.

Brooke Kneebush [00:23:13] Great. And I can see and hear in your voice how passionate you are, and also appreciative of the opportunities that you've had through officiating. So, thank you for sharing your time with us, Cheryl, and for your insights into the theme of How you officiate, a modern approach to officiating. And thank you to our audience for listening.

Brooke Kneebush [00:23:34]To learn more about community officiating, head to the Australian Sports Commission's officiating web page. I'm Brooke Kneebush and I look forward to you joining me for the next podcast in the Coaching and Officiating series.

Brooke Kneebush [00:23:53] This podcast was produced on the lands of the Ngunnawal people by the Australian Sports Commission. We pay our respects to their Elders, past and present, and recognise the outstanding contribution that Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people make to society and to sport in Australia.

Transcript

Brooke Kneebush [00:00:08] Hello and welcome to our coaching and officiating podcast series. My name is Brooke Kneebush and I'm the Senior Officiating Advisor at the Australian Sports Commission. I'm coming to you from the lands of the Boon Wurrung and Woi Warrung people in Victoria. Along with special guests each episode. I'm here to talk about some important officiating topics.

Brooke Kneebush [00:00:33] The theme for today's podcast is how you improve, including a modern approach to officiating, continuous learning, reflection, coping, and thriving. Today I'm joined by Kay Robinson, who is the National Wellbeing Manager, Refereeing at Football Australia, where she works with officials, leaders and stakeholders to drive positive change and support the wellbeing of officials. Thanks for joining us, Kay.

Kay Robinson [00:00:53] Thanks, Brooke. Really excited to be here. I'm speaking to you from Djarawong nation and looking forward to embracing the Aboriginal tradition of storytelling through our podcast today.

Brooke Kneebush [00:01:04] Fabulous looking forward to it. So, Kay, you hold quite a unique position with football Australia. It's a role not commonly found in national sporting organisations. Can you tell us about your role?

Kay Robinson [00:01:16] Absolutely. So, I'm National Wellbeing Manager for the Referees at Football Australia and that stems from the elite level where I offer support to our elite panel of referees on the A-leagues as well as the Referee Department and also do some work trying to promote wellbeing in our community referees.as well. I've come from a sports physio background, so I've had a career in sport, and I guess it was kind of linked to my wellbeing that made me have a little bit of a transition moving away from the travel associated with sports physio and also really the, the time I did spend travelling really kind of grew my interest in athlete and sport wellbeing and it's given me the great opportunity to introduce a wellbeing strategy in an area that doesn't have many wellbeing strategies in officiating. So, the role is a combination of one-to-one support with our, our panels as well as group development and a bit of staff development. And working into some policies that can support the wellbeing of everyone involved in refereeing. So really try and take a bit of a departmental and systems approach. So that means that it's not just one person there for wellbeing, it should be the system provides good wellbeing support.

Brooke Kneebush [00:02:34] That's great because the wellbeing of officials right through from community level to high performance is also important. So, Kay, the role of the official extends well beyond applying the rules of the sport. The best officials are participant centered, emotionally intelligent, excellent communicators, quick and accurate decision makers, and uphold high ethical standards. And these are just some of the attributes expected of officials. So, to keep on top of all of these requirements, it makes sense that continuous learning is central to modern officiating. How can continuous learning impact officials’ wellbeing, and what type of skills can officials work on to contribute to their own positive wellbeing?

Kay Robinson [00:03:17] So important and probably a shift that we've seen in officiating, particularly in the recent years, as we bring in wellbeing and the importance of that, that growth mindset and it's so much more about more than the technical black and white these days is much more around managing the game and communications as well. Refereeing can be so all-encompassing and demand so many commitments, so I think wellbeing can sometimes be looked at as a little bit fluffy. But there's such strong links to performance and that health and wellbeing grounding is crucial, but it's really important that they have the mindset to be able to overcome obstacles like with, with athletes on the field, the selection obstacles they might make poor, might have a bad game and, and using that reflection and opportunities for growth is really crucial so that they can, can see those things rather than a bad game as actually a learning experience and moving forward. And I think it's really important with all this that we can work on doing this together, as a team. Officiating can be really isolating and so how we can work to promote this amongst each other and amongst our team is, is pretty important too.

Brooke Kneebush [00:04:32] Great. And you've raised some really important points there. Let's look more closely at this growth mindset to start with. So, a growth mindset begins with understanding self. Why is it important for referees or any officials really to have good self-awareness? And what does that involve and, and how do you develop it?

Kay Robinson [00:04:52] I think one of the first questions I ask a referee and I've done this from the start. Just trying to understand why people go into refereeing and officiating. We all know that no one's there waving a flag for the referees. There's very few people in the stands, maybe family and a few friends who are cheering for the referees, so there's gotta be a really intrinsic reason of why someone's out there. So, my first question to most referees that I work with is why? Why do you do it? And I think that, you know, that leads to so many other areas in our life to really understand our why gives us really good self-awareness and some of the examples I've seen that in referees being involved in a game they love. A lot of it's around leadership and being able to lead other people. Giving back to the game. There's a huge thing around connections as well. You know, you make lifetime friends, you make connections with the wider footballing societies. There's so many, many varied whys, but it's important to understand that for yourself is really important because that's why often links to your values and if things maybe aren't, aren't going your way, being able to draw someone back to why they're there and the foundations of doing it can sometimes help as a bit of a reset, particularly if they've had a bad couple of games, bad season or there’s other things going on in their life. And equally keep coming back to if their why is still there. So, I think obviously reflection is key. We go to that deeper kind of why. But on a day-to-day basis, being able to reflect on how you've done and that doesn't just have to be in a game, it's did I sleep well? Is there anything I can do better? Are there any resources I can look at and that's where I'm available to support people, find those resources as well. But a lot of the work's gotta be done by the individual to find out where they wanna go and I think change needs to be intrinsically motivated to be valuable to that person. It's no good me going around and telling everyone they've got to have a certain amount of hours sleep per night or do this specific recovery. But maybe I can prompt the questions or the areas that maybe, maybe need to be reflected on and help with that process, whether it's a match day reflection and sometimes that's minimising. Yeah, I know we've had some officials who will spend hours and hours reflecting, which actually probably isn't great for their wellbeing because it takes up time and it becomes a little bit of a chore. So we've looked with individuals and it's such a unique thing of what works best for them and how they can get the most out of it and whether it's talking it through, writing it down, there's so many ways, but it needs to be individual, but sometimes just a few little prompts to, to aid reflection or a few tools has been found to be really beneficial.

Brooke Kneebush [00:07:44] Yeah. And you talked about that sort of over reflecting and sometimes that can be a cycle of really dwelling on a negative which can't be good. We need to use that reflection to look at ways to, you know, perhaps improve on that next time. Can you suggest some other ways that people can reflect because as you said, it's a really individual thing and people should be doing what works for them.

Kay Robinson [00:08:07] Absolutely. And I think one of the first conversations I have is being realistic with time, I think we mentioned you can have, you can over reflect, but you can also then eat into other things that are really important to you, whether this be family time. So, I think it's understanding the time frame that you have available and being able to mold something into that. So, finding the tool or the process that's right for you and very rarely does that come as the first thing you try. I think goal setting is so powerful as well, because then you can, you can link your reflection and it's often easy to get those outcome goals. And I know with our panel it's often referee at a World Cup or become a FIFA referee, which are fantastic outcome goals. But there's so much outside your control. So, it's fine to have those overarching goals to be the best that you possibly can but then it's thinking about those processes and what, what's put in place to get those processes. So, I like to suggest a bit of a hierarchical goal system where it's fine to have those overarching and it doesn't always need to be a, an event. It can be a feeling almost or a dream that people want to go and then really try and break that down to processes. The processes right that might be to improve my physical training or meet a certain fitness test requirement and then breaking that down into smaller steps as well around how are you gonna do that? And it nothing's perfect. So, it's actually a more about effort or engagement rather than I'm going to do something this many times a week because curve balls come into life, we know that. Other techniques that kind of more practical things, obviously using footage. I know our, our referees use footage. There’s feedback from coaches, there’s potentially even using footage from different leagues and reflecting on how you would do decisions. There’s journaling. I know some, I think it's a love it or hate it side. Some people really like that, that writing down, and I find that often with feedback from our officials gives a little bit of closure. They write back something that potentially was a challenge, something that really went and a learning point and then almost actually, literally draw a line under it and go - that's what I’ve taken and now it's time to move on. I can't change anything that happened. However, I might take some of those learnings into the next game.

Brooke Kneebush [00:10:33] Excellent. And I really like the way that you touched on when you're talking about process goals and not only those big target goals, but the engagement element. And I think that engagement with your stakeholders is such a massive part of officiating and can make such a difference to the way that your stakeholders feel about it, but also how you feel about it. Now you touched on the propensity sometimes of officials to dwell on mistakes, but unfortunately, sometimes we do make mistakes just like athletes do. That's, that's what sport is about and why we have officials, really. So how do you support football referees to manage at the time that they actually might make a mistake and then afterwards in in reflection?

Kay Robinson [00:11:16] Yeah. And as you say, it's so important in the refereeing world. All athletes make mistakes, but particularly in a team sport, life carries on. A referee can make a mistake and it it's in the headlines and talked about for the next little while, so I think that's where you know, wellbeing support’s crucial across the board, but a mistake shouldn't be a wellbeing issue if we're dealing with it well because as you say, mistakes happen and we don't want those mistakes to have a wellbeing impact. But sometimes they do. Particularly kind of with the noise and sometimes with other things going on in people's lives. Sometimes a mistake that happens can then uncover other things, but the first thing is done, led by a coach and probably 9 times out of 10. It's talked about, it's reflected on. It's dealt with, but there's always then further support offered if needed. Hopefully the safe, this space is safe to be able to discuss the mistake, discuss some learning points, discuss anything that can be, be done from a team point of view to support them from it happening again, and getting some constructive feedback from both ways. But that deeper feedback might not happen straight away. It's often important to just give some time and space for self-reflection. Ideally, don't leave it too long, because it can then ruminate a little bit. But I know a lot of our small teams themselves will have some feedback immediately in the changing rooms, not necessarily with the coach, but that support of other people who've been through the same situation and were out there at the same time is really needed. So, it's about overcoming disappointment. It's about normalising those mistakes and then looking at some strategies around that and you know, bringing in gratitude and the things that have gone well. A football game is 90 minutes. We usually spend 90% of our time talking about the potential 30 seconds where there's a mistake. So, it's trying to draw out some of the positives from that other 89 1/2 minutes of a game that have probably gone really well is really important. Sometimes this is self-talk and sometimes this is taking self-talk into the next game or again journaling of actually writing. Why? Why are you there? Why are you good at that role? What went well last time? What are your strengths? Just to go out with that positive, positive outlook. And trying to stay in the moment.

Brooke Kneebush [00:13:37] And I can see lots of the suggestions that you're making. There are really self driven and not just about a, you know, a coach or an official person with a wellbeing title which is really important because a lot of our officials in in other sports may not have an officials coach and that the sport itself might not have quite as many resources but, as you said, talking to someone who may have experienced similar can be really useful. What are some other ways that you can seek out those opportunities yourself? Not necessarily through formal channels?

Kay Robinson [00:14:13] Absolutely. I think you know, I understand at community level you might be alone officiating. If you know you're going to be by yourself. Is it that you can have, even if it's somebody not connected with football or somebody there? So, you know, you've got some support. Can you talk through how you're feeling before with somebody in a similar situation or has been in a similar situation? This could be a mentor, I think. Reach out, ask people for support. People don't necessarily offer, but from my experience people are always willing to help and have a chat and that doesn't have to be a weekly formal catch up. It could be an as and when or a quarterly or whatever you decide amongst yourselves. But having someone to talk to and it doesn't just have to be ideally, someone who's going to be your cheerleader, it's probably somebody that can give you some, some constructive criticism, some learnings, but also you know that they've got your back.

Brooke Kneebush [00:15:07] Yeah, great. And getting back to self-reflection, you were talking about not only exploring the areas where you need improvement, but really digging into those areas where you're doing well. Can you talk a bit more about that?

Kay Robinson [00:15:21] Absolutely. And. And we know that positive emotion has greater links with wellbeing as well. So, if you're, if you're feeling positive, you're feeling good, it's likely to have a positive impact. And, and we talked about the we tend to focus on those negatives. And I think historically coaches have as well ultimately and that's where the modern approach is more, let's look at the great things we've done and draw away from everything's technical. So absolutely talk about the positive technical side - really important. There's so many other areas and that can lead back to some of our process goals. Just to widen that view a little bit, can come from positives in communication, like how crucial is communication in refereeing? Whether that's with the players, with the coaches, with your team, with stakeholders, and it probably needs to change, the way you do that for each person you're speaking to, so actually taking learnings from that. Understanding what went well around how you communicated, how you might have diffused a situation, how you spoke. Looking at preparation, you know is your, is your warmup the best it can be you, know are you just how does your day look and I think that, that's an important one to touch on, because it's important to have a routine, but be flexible in that routine as well, so it might be a case of, well, I tried to think slightly different, but that still works, so that's great. So now I know I can. If that creeps into my day, that's fine. So, it might have been seen as a negative that your car broke down that morning for example, but what a positive, that you still got there, you still performed. Everything went smoothly. You're adaptable, you're flexible. So, I think trying to turn all the, as many of the negatives into that. OK, but what, what were the positives I got out of it?

Brooke Kneebush [00:17:10] I imagine it could also help if you were in a mentor relationship with a less experienced official, someone who was aspiring to achieve what you've achieved, those learnings that you've had, it would be great to be able to share how you've overcome the challenges and and how that's impacted your resilience.

Kay Robinson [00:15:29] Absolutely.

Brooke Kneebush [00:17:30] So, you touched on physical health and exercise.

a little bit there. How can they contribute to mental wellbeing? And not all officials actually have physical roles like football officials. For instance, a criteria-based judge is sitting for long, long periods of time. Have you got any tips and tricks for those types of officials as well?

Kay Robinson [00:17:52] Yeah, for sure. So, I think the foundations are good, wellbeing are exercise, sleep and eating well. And we can try and bring all these extra things in. And I know, kind of it's a bit of a buzzword and there's all sorts applying, but so crucial to get those things and I think you know our our football referees are lucky because exercise is a component that they kind of have to do to to be at that level of refereeing. And so that even at community, you know if you're not, you're not doing at least a little bit of training, you're probably going to be struggling on game day. So that I think that kind of helps it ticks off, however, that training is probably not always important for health, mental health and headspace, and it's been it's important to recognise that and sometimes it's a swim or walk by the beach or something that you really value, that might have a better impact on that. But it is hard if you're a referee that or an official or a judge that, you're spending a whole day inside a building and you don't have the opportunity to exercise, and that's not part of your role. That's another thing that you have to add in to your probably job and family and social connections and travel and all the other things. So, it's trying to make it a habit and a routine.as whether it be every day that's often unfeasible, and people set that every day mark and go can't do it too hard, so it's it's starting small. It's going once a week. I'm going to set my alarm 45 minutes earlier to get up and do this. Routine is really important. Routines really hard when you're travelling, so I'd say start small and if you can start something but tick some other boxes. Whether it's being outside, if you're stuck inside all day or you know something that involves a little bit of breath work, so swimming's great for that. I think from your point of judging, it's really hard to sit still for a long time and maintain focus. And I think you know, we're seeing that a little bit more with with VAR. These people that are doing VAR are usually very active on the pitch moving all the time and now have a role that involves sitting down. Trying to have little movement breaks, and that doesn't need to be stand up and go for a run. Its, stand up and sit down and stand up three times, even if you've only got 15 seconds or stand up, see if you can get outside, take a few breaths. So, when you are sat in that chair or sat on a pool deck, which can be really hot, you know, all those environments aren't great for our cognition Usually, we're really focused and astute. It's absolutely not easy.

Brooke Kneebush [00:20:28] Great. Thank you. Let’s take a a bit of a different tack now. So, we know that officials are sometimes concerned about dealing with difficult stakeholders. It might be unruly spectators, angry coaches, frustrated players and I do want to flag here that this type of behaviour towards officials is, is not OK. Perpetrators of disrespectful treatment toward officials need to be held to account and, and the Australian Sports Commission and national sporting organisations like Football Australia, they are certainly working hard to prevent these behaviours. But what are some tools that you recommend officials equip themselves with to manage challenging situations when they do arise?

Kay Robinson [00:21:06] Absolutely. And a challenging one that I wish I wish we didn't have to discuss, but absolutely we I think we see it across all sports and at all levels and potentially even more impactful at that community level because you don't necessarily have such support structures around you. So, and I think not trying to take that on as something that the individual official should be having to deal with. A lot of people have come up to me since I've been in the role and said “What are you gonna do about match official abuse?” And I'm like, “well, what's society gonna do and what's the football ecosystem?” One person, I'm I can support the referees, but it it's a much bigger picture and I think it's important for officials to understand that, that it's almost not their job to change people's behaviours. Like there, there are things that they can do, and I think bottom line at whatever level you are, it's understanding the things that you can do. So, what’s in your power to control this and I know in some areas we've got a few new things coming in and there's the sin bins coming in in areas of football and things. So, it's actually having a clear understanding of what you can do and trying to do that at the right time. Just trying to, I guess, empower all our officials to use those tools effectively. So it does have an impact, but things like sending off, stopping play. Speaking up, reporting. I think understanding what's there and hopefully as a collective doing as much as we can to minimise that behavior.

Kay Robinson [00:22:37] Having, having a strong support system in place is crucial, and that's inside and outside football at higher up level, you're more likely to have kind of support from a system, but potentially at grassroots it's finding that support from family, friends, mentors, people at the member federation or state system, or community level that you know that they've got your back and hopefully well if you don't feel comfortable to speak up, they might be able to and and then as we've said, unfortunately these things happen. So, it's having strategies in place to try and minimise the effect it has on you. And this might be talking, you know, a lot of people go just want to talk it through, get it off my chest and can move on. It might be drawing on those positives. The things that did go well and not letting get overshadowed one episode overshadow what's been a really good game. And you know, the 90% of people who've been appreciative of your work. And I think generally there are a lot of people who are, but they're not the ones that shout out from the stands. And obviously at the more elite level, you're going to have social media impact and it it's looking at ways to some people go - not gonna have any, any impact with social media. Not gonna read it. Not gonna use it. I think as the younger generation comes through, that's almost not possible for them. So, it's being able to advise how, how they can minimise the impact it has.

Brooke Kneebush [00:24:06] And the great news is that there's actually some new rules and laws around social media coming, not soon enough, but hopefully there's a brighter future there. OK, so officiating can be intense. We've, we've talked about difficult situations, but it might be that there's an important competition you're officiating, like a grand final or a selection event, or there might be prize money involved. And we know, you know, sometimes officials do make mistakes, and then when you add to that, juggling a job family, study it all really adds up. How can officials juggle all these balls in the air at the same time. Well, what are some ways that we can help them to cope and thrive.

Kay Robinson [00:24:49] Wish I had the magic bullet for this one Brooke. But it's absolutely a challenge and everyone's got different, different competing needs and wants and people around them that want different things from them. A way that we often talk about it is it's OK to have different things. I think really, you know, we understand that and hopefully everyone around us does, as well. Ensuring that you do you do with intent, whether that's family time, whether that's work, whether that's officiating and knowing your processes around each of those things is really crucial. So, it's OK if you have family time, you don't need to be thinking about officiating, but when you're on the field, that's when you need to be thinking about officiating. And you know some little, some work around, now, a lot of people I've spoken to have found it quite challenging to go from work straight to training and almost have that real shift in what they should be doing, and I, I heard an interview with a doctor not long ago who was a pediatrician and then would go home to his family and found that transition time really hard. And he always talked about having a cape. So, at work he has his cape and he almost, he started almost physically taking this make-believe cape off to go - OK, now I'm a Dad. And we talk about the same thing. For officials, it's a case of once that uniform’s on, you're an official. So, you've got that real separation. Because it's hard. We all know we come home from work and we're thinking about things we need to be doing. But if you're an official and you're out on a game that night, that's potentially going to impact performance. So, it's trying to find some strategies to have that, that separation and that might even be time that might be a I'm going to sit for 5 minutes. I'm just gonna breathe or listen to some music or do something that is a little bit of a circuit breaker between two things, but it is challenging and sometimes communicating those other things that are going on in your life can be beneficial, whether that's with a coach or mentor or a friend. Anyone really.

Brooke Kneebush [00:27:48] I love the analogy of the, the make-believe cape I, I actually do a similar thing and I'm an actress going on stage and everything else is out of mind while I'm out there doing what I do and then like you said, sometimes the minute you step off the field or or whatever it is, it's right back into it, but that's OK and it's almost like being out there, doing your thing is like taking a break. And sometimes if you if you're able to switch on and off like that, it can be really empowering.

Kay Robinson [00:27:17] Think is a really powerful skill to be able to do that as well, and again it takes practice like the other things and sometimes it won't work, but you build up that practice potentially in different, training for example. So, you have the skills going into a game day to do that.

Brooke Kneebush [00:27:32] Yeah, absolutely. So, we've talked about some challenges with officiating, but actually officiating can be really rewarding as well, and that's why we we do it, isn't it? And it can often actually contribute to positive wellbeing. So, what are some reasons that the referees you work with, enjoy what they do? Why do they keep coming back and how does officiating make their lives better?

Kay Robinson [00:27:56] Ohh so many ways and I think I've been really lucky to get such a great insight into some of these since I've been in my role, and I think there's a lot about giving back to the game and being part of football, which people love and have such a passion for. It can be a way to stay involved in a game as well. It helps develop the game. You know, we don't have referees, we don't, we don't have a game, Ultimately. I think speaking to a lot of our, our female officials, they're such role models for the future generation and support for the future generation and they get so much from that. A huge thing about working alongside peers connections, great friends and those that are on our FIFA panel, it often comes back to again just learning new cultures, connections, understanding people more is such a driver for spending many hours away from family and having unpaid leave from work. But you know that that travel and experiencing in new cultures is is such a huge pull at that level. And I think you know, one of one of the key, key things around wellbeing is that feeling of belonging in connection and how good is sport for that ultimately? Whether that's coaching, refereeing, playing, physioing being involved brings you that sense of belonging connection. So that's, that's huge amongst our referees. And it's a great way to combine physical and mental fitness as well. And you know, keep, keep cognitively ticking as well as the, the physical training component. And you know, I think the skills you develop can can pay you back for so many years to come. I know the, the World Economic Forum just released a, a least of kind of the top skills that they'll be looking for in in 2025. And it aligns so beautifully with referees. So even if it's at a community level and these referees and officials aren't looking to go to the, the highest level, the things that they can develop in leadership and communication are just so crucial for the rest of their life.

Brooke Kneebush [00:30:03] My yeah, for sure. I absolutely agree with you about those skills that particularly young people just getting started in officiating, the way that they can develop as people for whatever it is they go on to do for the rest of their life. It's, it's actually so exciting, but we need to get away now, Kay. But before we sign off, we did just want to offer some aftercare messages. Kay, we've spoken a lot about wellbeing today. What final suggestion do you have for officials to look after themselves?

Kay Robinson [00:30:35] I think ultimately, it's OK to say you're not OK and trying to find someone that's trusted that you can within your sport or outside your sport that then you can reach out to. And I think sport has, has that responsibility to provide that person and that space. I think there's people out there willing to support, and there's always, there's always strategies. There's always things that can be done. It's not so black and white that you must do this, this and this. But communication is key and sometimes potentially missing a training or missing a game is gonna be much more beneficial than forcing you out there. So it's fine to, we all have bad days and good days and, and try and communicate that as much as possible.

Brooke Kneebush [00:31:21] Thank you and remember help is available. It's important to seek support early if you find stress or anxiety starting to impact your daily life. Consult a GP, mental health professional or a mental health organisation such as Beyond Blue. If you require urgent support, call Lifeline on 13 11 14. Or if someone’s safety is in danger, call 000.

Thank you for sharing your time with us, Kay, and for your insights into the theme of How you improve for officials with a modern approach.

Kay Robinson [00:31:52] Thanks so much. Thanks for having me.

Brooke Kneebush [00:31:54] And thanks to our audience for listening. To learn more about community officiating, head to the Australian Sports Commission’s Community Officiating web page.

I'm Brooke Kneebush and I look forward to you joining me for the next podcast in the coaching and officiating series.

Brooke Kneebush [00:32:08] This podcast was produced on the lands of the Ngunnawal people by the Australian Sports Commission. We pay our respects to their Elders, past and present, and recognise the outstanding contribution that Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people make to society and to sport in Australia.

Transcript

Brooke Kneebush [00:00:02] Hello and welcome to our Coaching and Officiating podcast series. My name is Brook Kneebush and I'm the Senior Officiating Advisor at the Australian Sports Commission. I'm coming to you from the lands of the Boon Wurrung and Woi Warrung people in Victoria. Along with a special guest each episode, I'm here to talk about some important officiating topics. The theme for today's podcast is Who you officiate. This includes understanding modern participants, their varied motivations and needs, the flexibility required, and role of officials in these being fulfilled. Today I'm joined by Jacqui Jashari, who is an international and all Australian netball umpire and is currently on the Asian International Testing Panel for World Netball. Her day job has a rather long title, being Director, Sport Development and Engagement, Sport and Recreation with the Western Australian Department of Local Government, Sport and Cultural Industries. She also has many other strings to her bow, which we’ll no doubt hear about in today's podcast. So Jacqui, thank you for joining us.

Jacqui Jashari [00:01:08] Thank you very much for having me, Brooke. I'm here, in Boorloo, which is Perth in Western Australia, on the banks of the Derbarl Yerrigan. And I would like to acknowledge the traditional owners of the land, the Whadjuk people of the Noongar, and pay my respect to Elders past, present and emerging.

Brooke Kneebush [00:01:25] Thanks very much, Jacqui. So, can you start by telling us about your journey in sport, how you came to be a netball umpire and your involvement from community right through to international?

Jacqui Jashari [00:01:37] Like everybody else, I started playing sport very young. I wanted to play lots of sports, so I was very fortunate. My dad was very sporty, and so he encouraged me to just play any sport that I wanted to. So, the list of sports I played was lacrosse. I did calisthenics, I did tap dancing, I did netball, I did basketball, I played a little bit of hockey, which I was not too good at. And then I decided, well, you know, I can try all those sports, but what was I most interested in? And what were the ones that I thought I could be fairly good at? So, I honed my skills into basketball and netball, becoming, state league basketball player, would you believe, and not so good at netball. But I ended up playing netball and coaching netball and ultimately umpiring netball. So, I started my journey down at Fremantle Netball Association. Then once I got a little bit older and I had children, I decided I'd do a bit of coaching. So, I dabbled in that for a bit. And then I was actually, you know, told, well, you got to go out there. It's part of your duties, as we all know, as a volunteer. So, I did go out and umpire and I was identified, as having a little bit of talent. And therein kind of started my journey in umpiring. So, and since then it's led me through to an international career, which has been fantastic. It's been, not not a long, long journey, but I think I say ten years of deliberate practice to get, you know, from community up to, you know, perhaps the elite level. So, you know, I was really fortunate when I was at Fremantle, I had some, you know, great role models down there, some beautiful mentors, and I and I loved it. You know, I just really enjoyed the social aspect.

And then I was kind of fast tracked into our WA Netball league. So, I went through my badge levels and I think the first season of WA Netball League, I got one game and I was over the moon. So, it was about a ten week season and I managed to knock one game in and wasn't invited back again. So, I think that just made me more determined. So went back to my association and you know, really, really worked hard there and then went through, got my all-Australian badge and then determined again, took me 6 years to get my international badge. So, you know, bunkered down and very determined to get that badge. So, I did. And since then, you know, I've been fortunate. It's. Taking me around the world, I've umpired at World Championships and Commonwealth Games. And met some wonderful people. And then it was a natural thing for me when I came off the court was to contribute, you know, back. So, I went back and started coaching umpires both at Community level, you know, WA Netball league and then national and international level. So, you know, it was just a natural experience. For me to do that and to go back and and give back, I guess.

Brooke Kneebush [00:04:26] Thanks for that. And I really liked hearing about the determination. And it actually seems like quite a common theme with some, some other officials who have eventually made it to a really high level but have had to face challenges along the way. And you talked a little bit about back in the day, I think that you and I, it was quite similar ages. Now, the world's changed a lot since, since you and I first became involved in sport as children and even sport itself has changed. And and that's really why the, the Sports Commission is leading this modern approach to transform the sporting experience and encourage more people to participate, officiate, coach and physically enjoy sport. What are some of the most significant changes that you've noticed in your role as netball umpire, and also in all the other work that you do?

Jacqui Jashari [00:05:13] Yeah, we see, you know, there's lots of trends that we see broadly across, you know, Western Australia. And I think the and in netball too, I think you know people are very time you know, very time poor. And so, the the way people want to consume, you know, sport and recreation and how they want to get involved in it is very different. You know, from when I was involved very at a very young age, it was a Saturday afternoon thing. And that's when you did it. And you're trying once a week and away you went. Whereas, you know, now I think, you know, everybody wants to consume it differently. So, you know, I love the way the modern, officiating and coaching approach, you know, talks about experience and environment, because it really resonates with me. And I think you stay involved because of that experience, and you stay involved because the right environment is created for you. Which I think is getting back to the challenge piece that you mentioned before. You know, it's not going to be smooth sailing. And you're going to get challenges, but I think people have different motivations, you know, to stay involved. They want to stay active. They don't want, you know, organised sport all the time. So, you know, there's a cost of sport as well. I think, you know, that's change for people too. So that's that's a bit of a challenge, you know, across many sports as well. And so, and the demand and commitments to sport is really critical.

Brooke Kneebush [00:06:30] Yeah. Great. And now you talked a little bit about your time in sport. Oh I wasn't that good. You actually sound a little bit like me I, I had the same sort of passion you had, but it was for gymnastics and I although I didn't make state level or anything like that, I absolutely loved it. I just couldn't get enough of it. And I actually went on to become a, you know, an official and a coach and was able to maintain that passion, just like you have. But I think often we, we assume people are in it to win. And it just is not always the case. Yes, some people are. And yes, winning is nice sometimes. But, what are some of the motivations for people you officiate for playing sport and, whether that be at the community level or even at the international level, what are some of those motivations?

Jacqui Jashari [00:07:24] I think, you know, being fit, you know, fitness is is a big motivation for people, you know, and then if they enjoy the game, they're playing the sport they're playing, they're going to to want to stay involved. And I think motivations are around, you know, people some people want to get to the top. So, they want to, you know, you know, participate in sport at an Olympics or a Commonwealth Games or World Championships, you know. And so, I think their motivation is when I look across my kind of spectrum of coming from kind of community right through that, you know, everyone has a different motivation. It's fun, it's enjoyment. It's, no pressure, you know, and being able to manage and cope with the pressure. I think coaches play a big part in that. So, whether they be umpire coaches or coaches of athletes, I think, you know, they're motivators, you know, for people to stay involved. So, I think, having good coaches, not just as technical coaches, but, you know, motivate, motivators and understanding the needs of the players and the umpires. You know, I try, from my experience, I try and get to know the umpires and understand, you know, their individuality, I guess, because they all have different motivations, different needs, different reasons why they’re involved, different reasons why they can't come week in, week out.

Brooke Kneebush [00:08:39] And then. So, we've got the motivations on the one hand. And then people might have different needs. So, they might be young, you know, they might just be learning the rules or they might be coming back from injury or illness. What what are some of the different participant needs that you've come across as an official?

Jacqui Jashari [00:08:57] Probably the best thing, and I teach this to this day, is that umpires, it doesn't matter what level you are at, you should go and experience different, you know, different levels of umpiring, different people with different needs, you know, umpiring, men's netball, you know, perhaps going down. You know, we have the, the disability team here too as well. So go down and do that, go to as many different carnivals as you can, can multicultural things, all those types of things. So, I think, you know, it's it's about adapting as an umpire. So, you know, umpires that are just, you know, you have those umpires that are very technical, and they could read the rulebook inside out, but it's about how they bring, their personality, and their approach to be able to adapt to the needs of the players and the coaches. And so how you approach that is really important. I think if you can't adapt, then you're going to get some challenges and issues across that. So, I think it's being aware of that. You know, we, you know, with females now, it's great females can play, you know, when they're pregnant. So, I think that's really important, you know, and building, building that understanding rapport, that relationship, both with, you know, again, players and coaches and umpires.

Brooke Kneebush [00:10:04] You're from Western Australia and I've spent quite a bit of time in far north Western Australia myself, and I know that sport goes on in some pretty remote places in such a big state. Are there some unique motivations for people across your state or remote Australia. And what about unique solutions to officiating challenges?

Jacqui Jashari [00:10:25] I think, you know, sport brings communities together. So, they're that thread that brings the community in every, probably country town in WA you can drive in and you see a bowling club, you know, you might see a multi-use recreation centre and you’ll see a swimming pool. So, it is often the place where people go to socialise, they meet all their friends, all those types of things. So, but with that they bring unique challenges. So, we have the far north, you know, the Kimberley, the Pilbara. And it's about facilities too. So, what's available in the facility. And I think the heat is a is a factor. And so generally they'll play at night, or they'll play in an indoor centre because of the heat. So, and I've lived in Kalgoorlie. So, I lived in the Eastern Goldfields for five years. So I played netball, played all sports up there and the facilities. Can remember the potholes in the netball court, you know, those types of things. So, but we played, and so it was just about adapting. It's really about knowing when people want to play sport, how they play it, where they play it. And it's very unique across Western Australia. So, but, but you know, there's opportunities for everyone to be involved. And umpiring is the same. We have regional academies for umpires and umpires coming through pathways and development pathways, which is critical.

Brooke Kneebush [00:11:39] Yeah. And it is a great way for communities to come together, people to come from outside of those towns and come centrally together and connect as, as you you've talked about there.

Jacqui Jashari [00:11:49] Yeah. And I think Brooke too to add to that is, you know, most, most states will have their state championships or their country regional championships. So everybody from the region, you know, will come into Perth. And they do it in Victoria and other places. And I can remember playing in Kalgoorlie and it was a big, you know, big event on the calendar to come to Perth on the bus and play all the other, you know, regional towns etc. And it was a big thing. So those opportunities are great and they're things you don't ever forget.

Brooke Kneebush [00:12:17] And they’re where friendships are made for life aren’t they you, keep those friends going on and on.

Jacqui Jashari [00:12:23] Yeah, 100%.

Brooke Kneebush [00:12:24] So with all your years of experience officiating. How do you go about trying to get to know the participants and try to understand these different motivations and needs? What sort of opportunities do you have to interact and engage?

Jacqui Jashari [00:12:44] Yeah, it's really important. Again, from my experience, I again teach the same thing to the umpires I work with. It's about taking the opportunities. You go to training sessions so you might stand around at a training session, but you're there listening to the coach, listening to the instructions that are given to the players. You get an opportunity maybe now and then to blow whistle or to, you know, call out stepping all those types of things. But you get to interact, you know, with the players without a pressure situation. So that's how you build that rapport and build those relationships. You know, in the first instance I think it's being approachable as well. So, you know, during a game or if they'd like to come up and talk to you at quarter time, half time or after a game, it's about how you approach that scenario. I always again had another saying is that, you know, I needed to earn the respect of the players. It was really important that I did that. It was important to me. But also, they needed to earn my respect. And so it was a two way kind of situation. So, working hard at that is really important. I think, you know, talking to coaches as much as you can, and understanding what they're trying to do with their players, but also calling out, when you need to, you know, behaviours and things like that with the players and having a, you know, a good conversation. I would always have a ten second rule. So, if I was approached, I would listen. Listening is really important as we know. So, I would always listen to, you know, what the what the I guess the question was or what they wanted to get across and then try and think, you know, calmly about my response, which is really good. So, I guess it's about, you know, building that rapport doesn't matter, whether it's on a Saturday afternoon or it's in an international level or where it is, having a rapport with coaches is really critical, you know, at all levels. I think that's the case sometimes because they feel comfortable to talk to you and ask you for clarification on things. So, it's not easy.

Brooke Kneebush [00:14:34] And no doubt making those good relationships with the coaches would rub off on their players because the the players would see, oh well the coach is respecting this official and and you know, the coach obviously thinks that they're being, you know, reasonable. So therefore, perhaps I can.

Jacqui Jashari [00:14:50] Yeah. And I think too with that the players didn't feel comfortable, and they might be a little bit cross or a little bit, upset by your decision or whatever, but they'll come up and they'll ask it in a nice way usually, and you can have a decent conversation around it. You can agree to disagree, and that's okay. But it's it's about how you how you do that and, how you create that relationship. And so, they feel comfortable doing it. But I think too, with umpiring, you know, umpires need to be humble. And sometimes, you don't see that, because, you know, they, they, don't want to recognise that they've made a mistake or, and I've done that. I've got a great example of where that happened to me when I was umpiring, you know, the National League and, I made a mistake and, of course, it was in the paper for three days. I think about this critical mistake that I made, but I, I thought, no, I've got to go stay here, and I've got to go to the training session with the coach, and the players and and talk through it. And so, I gave the opportunity at the end for them all to talk to me about that. And they talked about that. And I just admitted that, yes, you were right. I made a mistake, and I was in this is why I made the mistake. I was in the wrong place, wrong time, looking at the wrong thing. And I went. Oh. Okay. So, examples of that are really, really important in umpires. You know, being able to do that and to be able to, you know, say that they've made a mistake or whatever is really important.

Brooke Kneebush [00:16:16] And interesting that you made one mistake and appeared in the paper for three days. And yet, sport has officials because players make mistakes all the time.

Jacqui Jashari [00:16:26] Yes, yes, yes. Well very true. You know, you see it with all sports don't you. You know, and it's just and so why is that one decision that is, you know, I think I don't know what the stats are think in a netball game. I think there might be something like 15,000 decisions or something like that, you know, and they're not whistle decisions. They're what you process in your head. And is that a contact, or isn't it? And is that this and that? So, you know, all in a matter of three seconds while the players got the ball. So, yeah, it's there's quite a few decisions to make.

Brooke Kneebush [00:16:54] So now can you think of some sort of practical ways that you can make sure that participant motivations and needs are met? Are there some sort of practical things that you can do?

Jacqui Jashari [00:17:05] Well, I think, you know, number one, you know, we all have responsibilities to make sure it's enjoyable. So, I think that's just number one. And that's in about the way you talk and what you say is really important. So, changing your tone. So, if you need to get something across, your tone might change. Or if you, you can have a giggle and a laugh in a game and that's okay. And often, you know, placed on here, you can call them by their names. I think being inclusive. Is really important. So, make everybody feel comfortable. That's true. And, you know, go to a game. Say hello. Be friendly. Make everyone feel comfortable. And then that kind of breaks the ice a little bit. So, they're kind of easy wins, I think. And again, it's just that positive environment. So, I can't kind of reiterate that enough. I think that's really important and making people feel relaxed. So, when we have young umpires, and we assume. They come out to our National League, you know, WA, netball league and we assume they're confident. And it might be their first game and they're so scared. But you know, we're not tuned into that. And so, we just assume that they are comfortable. So, it's those little things I think that to say how are you feeling. You know what's going through your mind. You know all those types of things I think safety is important too. So, ensuring that, you know, protection of players, you know, protection of umpires, I think is really important all round. And so, there are obviously some general trends that, you know, across concussion and the like. And so, I think it's important that, we understand around that. Also, you know, integrity, sport integrity is really important as well. So that's you know, key and people being aware of that and what that means. Making the playing environment fair and equitable, I think is also, you know, paramount. And we can influence that, as well. You know, I think looking at learners and, you know, older adults and their needs are different. And how do we, you know, support them in what they're trying to do as well?

Brooke Kneebush [00:18:57] Great. And can you actually adapt the way that you officiate to make people feel included and respected and, and accepted? Are there ways that you can do it when you're on the court with the whistle?

Jacqui Jashari [00:19:09] Yeah, absolutely. I think you can. I think, it is, you know, we often talk in Netball. There's a quiet word. So, everyone talks, you know talks about it being something different. It's just a verbal kind of chat with a player to say, oh, you need to probably stop doing that, or don't go offside so much or, and giving them that encouragement to say, you know, don't keep doing that. Let's let's adjust. Let's adapt so that we're not penalising you all the time. So in in netball umpiring, there's those types of things. Just you hear it in football a bit too, when the umpire will say move, move back off the mark or do this or do that. And I think there's ways we can do that. I think coming down to a community level to, you know, I umpired a little, junior game once because they had no one to umpire it. And so, I thought, oh, you know, piece of cake, I'll get out there and do that. And it was, for me, probably one of the hardest games I've ever umpired with. You know, the kids were all running at the ball and then that'd all run away. And then they wouldn't listen to me. And, and so it was just really getting, you know, stopping the game and getting down to their level and to say, right, kids, you know, you were coaching and umpiring. So, it's like you run off over there and you run off over there. And so, it was just about really adapting the way you talk, what you do, how you interact and what you're able to do at the different levels.

Brooke Kneebush [00:20:20] Yeah. And you talked about, umpiring the little ones. I always think as a gymnastics judge, we put the the learner judges on the learner gymnasts who make all sorts of mistakes, and you see things and you can barely recognise it as a skill, and then you have to figure out what the rules are around that. Whereas it would be easier if we started off officiating, the more experienced participants first and then worked our way down to those beginners.

Jacqui Jashari [00:20:48] Yeah. And it's probably, you know, part of our development here with our kind of state league umpires is we will often move from between levels of games, because they are challenged. And then they'll come off and go gosh, you know, that that level game was so hard. And I said, yeah, it's a lot harder because your skills and techniques, they don't change, but it's how you apply them that changes. And so, it really makes a really rounded umpire. And actually, they they might go back a little bit to go forward, which is a really good way to develop.

Brooke Kneebush [00:21:13] And then also get that experience of officiating alongside other officials of, of different levels as well.

Jacqui Jashari [00:21:20] Yeah. We often will put a very inexperienced umpire with a more experienced umpire. It's no different from what they do with their players on the court. So, you know, and we get that buy in from them. So, it's good. And I think also with coaches. So, I've really, you know, tried to build relationships so that I can be impactful to help them help their team in terms of, you know, understanding the rules. So, Stacey Marinkovich, the coach of the Diamonds, Stacey was based here with Fever for a while and we, you know, we we got to know each other really well. And I'd often get a phone call to say, Jacqui, can you just have a look at this video? Like, I need you to explain this to me, you know, and so we would had that kind of relationship, which helped her bring a better experience for her players. And I was impactful in terms of supporting that. So always be open, you know, to have those conversations and to go into trainings and be, you know, help players directly. So often I would go in and just talk to the players about certain things they were doing. I think Courtney Bruce, being here at The Fever for so long. So, we, you know, we built a good relationship and were able to talk about a lot of things and talk about ways that, you know, look at videos and talk about ways that, you know, she could reduce penalties, for instance, or do do different things technically better so that, you know, umpires would understand what she was trying to do. And they were some great experiences. I had some, you know, not all good experiences, but I think, you know, I think always managed to work through, you know, any challenges with players and, you know, build that relationship often just having a laugh in the hallway or, you know, behind and, you know, having a general chat about stuff other than netball, you know, and so I think, you know, I had some you know, it's probably been a great journey in terms of those friends, both players and coaches. So, yeah, some some really good experiences, I think. And hopefully I had I had had an impact, and hopefully, you know, they've respected probably what I hopefully brought to the game and brought to umpiring as well.

Brooke Kneebush [00:23:13] Fantastic. Oh, wow. That's just wonderful. Jacqui, thank you so much for sharing. And and thank you for joining us today and sharing your insights into the theme of Who you officiate, understanding the modern participant. Thank you also to our audience for listening.

Brooke Kneebush [00:23:29]To learn more about community officiating, head to the Australian Sports Commission's officiating web page. I'm Brooke Kneebush, and I look forward to you joining me for the next podcast in the Coaching and Officiating series.

Brooke Kneebush [00:23:29] This podcast was produced on the lands of the Ngunnawal people by the Australian Sports Commission. We pay our respects to their Elders, past and present, and recognise the outstanding contribution that Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people make to society and to sport in Australia.

Introduction Voice Over [00:00:03] This is a Sport Australia podcast production.

Cam Tradell [00:00:07] Hello, and welcome to our coaching and officiating podcast series. My name is Cam Tradell and I'm the project lead for coaching officiating at Sport Australia. Over this series, we will look at what it takes to modernise Australia's coaching and officiating system. Each podcast, we will be joined by a special guest who will share experiences and practical tips on their topics.

Cam Tradell [00:00:35] Today, we're joined by one of Australia's premier officials, Australian football referee Kate Jacewicz. Kate's refereeing journey commenced by chance one day when she was asked to pick up the whistle for a match that her brother was playing in. Prior to that event, Kate had been an avid football player. Since making her way into officiating, Kate has refereed at the highest levels, including Australia's W-League, the A-League, the FIFA World Cup and Olympics. Kate, thanks for joining us today.

Kate Jacewicz [00:01:05] Thank you for having me, Cam.

Cam Tradell [00:01:06] Can you just give us a bit of insight to what sports did you play, and then how did this journey start?

Kate Jacewicz [00:01:11] Well, I originally am from the Gold Coast in Queensland, and I was a swimmer to start with. My mum, obviously, being in Queensland wanted us to learn to swim and I had two young male friends, like family friends, and they both played football and anything that they did, I wanted to do, so I pestered mum to join a football team, the local football team, which is Mudgeeraba junior soccer club. That was my club for 15 or so years, and I remember my first game was for my brother, actually my younger brother, who's little miniroos roo ball referee never showed up at an away club and mum was like, "Oh Kate's here she can do it". So I got to run around for my first game, um, you know unpaid that type of thing because I was at another club, but I really, really loved it and I loved football, and I guess I loved reflecting back on it now, I guess what I really loved about it was the analytics of the game of football and, you know, being the decision making and the thinking around football like me as a 13 year old girl didn't understand that. But you know, retrospectively, now I can see what drew me to it and just remembering my thoughts around, you know, just being involved, seeing the game unfold around me, the emotions, you know, the excitement of the kids, you know, a game of football is like a really good TV drama, right? It's got everything and you get to experience the highs and lows of both teams. Yeah, that's me as a 30 something year old now being able to reflect on it, but as a 13-year-old kid, I just loved the game and loved being involved in it. So, mum took me to my first like level, like entry level referee course. She did it with me, and from there I just refereed every Saturday at my junior club. I was still playing at the time, so I refereed, I played, I coached until a certain point where, you know, people in football were all starting to make a name for myself, though, like, you know, you have to give up something. And I’m like "oh, I don't really want to". I definitely wasn't going to give up playing because that's my first love. And so, I gave up coaching to pursue refereeing, and that's when I got invited to state titles in Queensland. And then I got invited on to national titles and just the career snowballed from there.

Cam Tradell [00:03:51] That's a cool story. And you say you went from player, I'm guessing on Saturday and refereeing on Sunday, sort of thing. Is that right?

Kate Jacewicz [00:04:00] Yeah. Well, on the Gold Coast, I was playing in the women's competition on a Monday night, so the girls in women's played Monday nights while still playing with the boys up until I was 17 years of age. So, we got to play Friday nights and then Saturday mornings was my, Saturday and Sundays was when I was able to whistle in the junior competitions and then be an assistant referee in the in the men's senior competitions until I worked my way up until when I whistled in the senior men's competitions.

Cam Tradell [00:04:27] It's always an interesting mix, isn't it? Between you say your true love's playing and yet refereeing clearly is a love, but those two things sometimes don't go hand in hand is playing and refereeing. How do you find the importance of you understanding the game really well from the player's perspective and how that assists or helps your refereeing?

Kate Jacewicz [00:04:46] Yeah, I think, you know, I'm not saying that every referee needs to play the game, but I think it serves, you know, as an advantageous skill, I guess, you know, understanding the emotions of a player, the frustrations of a player, the ins and outs of the game, being a player and a player for so long, who played in the middle of the field, so the midfield. But the referee’s movement is quite similar as well to a midfielder. So you're able to you can read the play, you know, when the ball's going to go long, you know when there's a press you need to press, you know, when it generally nine times out of 10, when there's going to be a miss kick because just the way the player is facing, there is no way they're going to be able to play the ball where they want to play, so it certainly gives you a lot of insight into the into the game of football and into players behaviour, but also the way that they play the game. So, I'm really, really grateful that I'm able to bring those skills that I learnt as a player transfer into the skills, as a as a referee.

Cam Tradell [00:05:59] It's interesting you're talking about the emotions, and you talk about the highs and the lows when you hit the lows, how do you deal with that? Is it different from community to performance to how you would deal with it? Or is it the same process or how do you deal with it?

Kate Jacewicz [00:06:13] Certainly, I would say there is minute differences in in the way subtle differences that I would speak with a community player or a lower-level player versus, you know, the top players in the world, you know, playing for the national teams. But I think now I'm starting to find my feet at an international level, and my personality is starting to come out, so I'm very much a referee that likes to use my personality and I like to use a bit of humour, I like to build connections with players on the field. I feel that you know... when I mean build a connection, It's more like... I respect them. I respect them on a professional level, and I would never talk down to them. But certainly, if they're trying to talk down to me, I would then put them in their place and be like, "Hang on a minute, like, your behaviour or your tone right now is completely unacceptable or inappropriate would you speak this way to someone serving you coffee" or something like this? And you know, try to remind them of the human side of the referee. I very much take this approach in community football, or you know back in Australia, you know, trying to connect with players on a on a human level. But again, it's the same... I take the same approach and that is building the respect from a very simple level, I guess.

Cam Tradell [00:07:43] That rapport building can, I guess, help both the referee as well as the players to understand the nuances in the way that you let a game flow. Do you try to set the tone of the game, or do you let the players sort of set the tone of the game of, you know, the pace, the ferocity, or how do you sort of navigate through what sort of game is going to unfold in front of you?

Kate Jacewicz [00:08:04] Yeah, that's a good question. I 100 percent, let the players do that. It's their game. I'm just a part of it. And you know, it's, I don't want to impact negatively or influence the game any more than I need to. I'm there when I when I need to be and I'm not there when I don't need to be. I'm very much I work in the background. But in saying that, you know, when I'm communicating on a field and I'm communicating with my team, especially one of the techniques I try to use is I kind of speak like I'm speaking to everyone around me, but I'm actually directing the information to my team and being like, right, I'm looking here. Make sure you get the other, the reverse angle, like I'm going to be looking at the aerial challenge between these two players. And then those two players, when I say their names, they look at me and are like "right, she knows exactly what... they know exactly what I'm looking at and what I'm directing my team to be looking at as well. Like, alright, I'm expecting possible hands in the aerial challenge, like, you know, and then players throwing elbows and that type of thing. So, I do it in a way where I, yes, I am directing the game, but you know, it's almost like maximum benefit, minimal interference, I’ve just stolen that from, you know, VAR philosophy. But that's the way I try to operate as a as a referee as well. It's their game. I'm a part of it, but I'm certainly going to try to facilitate this match to the best of my ability so we can maximise the most out of this game

Cam Tradell [00:09:46] At the community level, a lot of the time there are people who are good enough to stick their hand in the air to help you on the side, how do you communicate to those people and make them feel like one -they're a part of what you're doing, but that they belong and they're important. You got any methods that you use?

Kate Jacewicz [00:10:02] Now as, I guess, an established referee. I do it this way back when, you know, 15, 10, 15 years ago, I probably didn't. Maybe I didn't have the confidence or the experience. But one thing that I would certainly suggest for you to try is communicate the same way you would communicate with a headset on. And I just amplify my voice the same way that we can talk to our team with you know the communication system. I still look at my team if I'm if I'm talking to them as well so we can use gestures and or body language facial gestures, and they can see that I'm looking at them. I mean, I remember distinctly one time the assistant referee couldn't hear me, but I could hear them, so then I was doing some gestures back to them to be like right " this is what I'm saying", type thing to acknowledge that. But in terms of the... like you said, the advice, I would amplify my voice and I would the same way I'd want the players around me to hear it. I just put what I want to communicate out into the world so that my assistant referees would hear me as well. Because, yeah, we're a part of the game and communication is vital, right? So, I would say that that's how I'd involve my team.

Cam Tradell [00:11:26] So it's like, you're talking to yourself, but talking out loud and talking to everyone. But is it what is actually going on in your mind? You just basically voicing what's happening in your head the whole time? So, does it sometimes come out like a little bit of commentating?

Kate Jacewicz [00:11:40] Yeah, we do have to describe what we see. And I've been fortunate enough, that's my style of refereeing anyway. So, the change hasn't really been too significant for me. If a player asked me, like, you know, what was that for? I'd be like, well, you know, it was, it was this for this, and they're like Oh, that's what you saw. I'm like, I'm just telling you what I see. I'm only calling what I'm seeing. I'm not a referee that would be like, you know. I'm not one that like kind of commentates and coaches the players like, don’t do this, don't do that, don't do this. And there are some referees that will, yeah, like it's almost like they're a coach out there being like, look easy, easy, hands down, hands down, like this type of thing. You know, players are players they'll either listen to you or they won’t. That's their choice. But you know, in terms of what information is critical that or like is, you know, advantageous, I guess, or is helpful. Yeah, that's the type of information that I like to provide. So, it almost is in a way, I am talking out loud, but it's information that is critical to, I guess, the management of the match.

Cam Tradell [00:12:53] Now that you're where you're at or whether you're a great community coach, do you have people that you call on to sort of ask advice or to give you feedback and so on? So, two parts, is, who's helped you get to where you are and then when you are refereeing at whatever level, have you got groups that you sort of lean on to ensure that you're doing a good job and to give you honest feedback?

Kate Jacewicz [00:13:16] Yeah. Well, in the beginning, a few names pop into my head. One is Allan Kibler, who was the referee’s manager in Queensland. He, I guess, found me at that state titles that I spoke to you about earlier. And then Barry Sutch is another one who is another Queensland referee manager and a few others that I'd like to kind of make note of and that is Gary Power, Jenny Bray, Steve Fenech all within the refereeing community down in New South Wales. And I mean, when I was coming through as a teenager and in my early 20s, I didn't really know the world of refereeing. And these are the people that, you know, lit the fire and said that, you know, the world is out there like it's the world game. You can travel to all these exotic destinations, whistling football all over the world. And, but I didn't really know what that meant until like, now I've lived the journey and I can see that I've got firsthand experience in that. So, it's nice that like I said, look back retrospectively and see what they were talking about and how it's come to life or come to fruition. And now ah... The people that I talk to the most are probably my peers, and I'm fortunate enough that I'm a FIFA referee and I'm on the World Cup candidate program and I've got access to, you know, some of the best referees from all over the world and refereeing at an elite level is quite a personal, a little bit isolating, but also it's a really unique experience that not a lot of people have that lived experience with. And what I mean by that is it's such an intricate, I guess, pathway and lived experience like what you... the emotions that you feel, the learnings that you take, the learnings that you not only take professionally but also personally. We all experience in some way shape or form very similar experiences, but are slightly different because we're all different people, but, and also from different cultures and different countries as well. So, I'm under no illusion that my journey is far more privileged than that, say someone coming from another country. But yeah, we all share this unique experience together and we have that like personal, firsthand insight into what it feels like to be an elite referee. So, I would say they're my peers that I've met along the way.

Cam Tradell [00:16:12] It's really interesting that you talk about, it's the same experience because once you're on the pitch, it's the same experience. However, where they've come from is the diversity that they bring. Does that help with regards to providing perspective on different ways that you can manage games, and have they helped you sort of hone your skills?

Kate Jacewicz [00:16:32] Oh, absolutely. So, for example, I was lucky enough to meet my hero in person, and that was Bibiana Steinhaus from Germany. You know, one of the first females in the world to get to the top in that in men's professional football. And I, you know, was totally, you know, fangirling at this point. But she is so humble and so kind that, you know, she didn't really care about that, and she just wanted to help. So, and she helped in her own way like I would never had the courage to be like, Hey, Bibi, you know, can you help me do this? It'd be like, we just be sitting together watching a game of football, and she'd be like, look, we could do this, this and this. We tried doing this this way, and you know, it'll work out much better for you. And I'm like, oh, wow, look, I'd never thought of it that way. So, yeah, definitely... Refereeing is about experience and learning from one another, and learning from others are either really, really good decisions, or you know others mistakes as well and sharing that insight and that's how we grow as individuals, that's how we grow the profession and that's how we grow the game. So yeah, that was, was a really cool experience and now I can, you know, just give her a text if I ever want some other little tips and advice.

Cam Tradell [00:18:10] It's amazing, isn't it, that you've got that, and if you think about your experience there the next generation coming through for you, the ones that are starting to develop here in Australia or elsewhere in the world, are you starting to find that they're starting to tap into you and your knowledge? Are you starting to have a bit more of a transitional point where you're mentoring others?

Kate Jacewicz [00:18:28] Yeah, I think so. And you know, it's almost like you don't realise it until you're there, you know, it's like, Oh, I'm in the process of, you know, the baton's been passed to me, but I'm probably the last to know and what I'm thinking just I’m entering into, you know, I guess, a general discussion or chit chat or conversation with another referee that I'm thinking is my peer actually turns around to be, you know, I'm I almost turn out to be that Bibiana Steinhaus for that young Kate Jack. And yeah, sometimes, I wish I kind of knew in the moment, I’m like, "Oh, maybe I should have taken that more seriously" or, you know, maybe, maybe I need to come up with some, you know, more meaningful stories for them or advice for them. But no, yeah, it's another learning experience for me, it's part of the journey. And, you know, I'm embracing that and really enjoying learning how to impart my knowledge in different ways to, like you said, the next gen.

Cam Tradell [00:19:38] It's interesting because sport changes so quickly. So, what sport looked like 20 years ago is very different now. So, I'm guessing that knowledge transfer becomes crucial as you're still an active referee, bringing through the next group who in 2032 with Olympic Games in Brisbane, that skill and knowledge transfer becomes key. What do you see for Australian referees in football? Is it an exciting future? Do you see good changes, or do you think we're going to need to do more work to develop high quality officials?

Kate Jacewicz [00:20:11] Yeah, that's an interesting question actually. Well, as you know, there's the 2023 Women's World Cup in Australia and New Zealand as well, coming up and what Australia has been good at previously is producing World Cup officials on limited resources. Yeah, like I mean, just to name a few we've got, Tammy Ogston, Jackie Hereford was an option, Allyson Flynn and Sarah Ho, not to mention then Mark Shields, Ben Williams and now Chris Beath. And they’re, you know, world class officials and, I would have to say, coming through the system, the resourcing and development of referees hasn't probably been where it could have been to possibly produce double or triple the amount of the names that I just that I just said. That doesn't mean that there hasn't been, but in terms of formalising and streamlining the development, I really believe that if we want the game to grow in Australia, that it needs to be a whole game approach and firstly, the recognition that match officials as a whole is ultimately almost like your third national team. And you know, we're a part of the national competitions, whether people like it or not, we're part of the game whether people like it or not. And if you want the game to grow and develop and reach its highest limits, you need the match official’s skills and abilities to match that as well, to grow with the game. If we're left behind, when you know people are going to be standing there going well, that same narrative and rhetoric of match officials are rubbish or this referee's decision cost the game, it's like, well actually can we, you know, actually look at what we've done for match officials in this country, and have we done enough for them? So, what I'd really like to see is building the referee program for football to be more in line with you know high performance in football as well, because referees and assistant referees we're athletes to, we're elite athletes as well, and we're competing on the world stage, the same as the Socceroos and the Matildas. And while it's going to take a while, I understand that with Sporting organisations now I work for one, I understand the, you know, the things that we have to do to build that, especially on a budget. I really do believe that that will take refereeing or officiating to the next level in Australia.

Cam Tradell [00:23:16] Yeah, that's fantastic. And let's face it, without officials, we don't have sport. Kate, I really appreciate your time this afternoon and thank you so much for joining us.

Cam Tradell [00:23:33] Thank you for joining me today. If you'd like to find out more about coaching officiating or have any feedback or questions, please email us at Workforce@sportaus.gov.au. My name is Cam Tradell and I look forward to you joining me for the next podcast in the coaching and officiating series.

Introduction Voice Over [00:00:03] This is a Sport Australia podcast production.

Cam Tradell [00:00:07] Hello and welcome to our coaching and officiating podcast series. My name is Cam Tradell and I’m the project lead for coaching officiating at Sport Australia. Over this series, we will look at what it takes to modernise Australia's coaching and officiating system. Each podcast, we will be joined by a special guest who will share experiences and practical tips on their topics. Today, I'm pleased to be joined by Ben Sutton, a football coach and former Pararoos player who played at the 2019 World Cup in Spain. Ben heads up the Paraoos Development Centre, which provides football development training to children and adults with cerebral palsy and acquired brain injuries. Ben has a passion for change and equality, and he got into coaching to create opportunities for children with cerebral palsy to play football. Ben, very pleased to speak with you, thanks for joining us.

Benny Sutton [00:01:04] Thank you very much.

Cam Tradell [00:01:06] Benny, I'm really interested in your journey. You've obviously done quite a lot in the game and played a lot of roles. I'm really interested in where did you start? What was your first experience in playing and who was really that person that supported you or gave you the love for the game?

Benny Sutton [00:01:23] I started when I was like four so that's when I decided to do it. And then the person who gave me the love for the game, was probably my father, because he was my first ever coach, and I remember one of the first ever memories that I have of playing, is of me in goal, then I got hit in the face with the ball. I saved it, but the ref and my dad counted that as a goal, and I was like, Oh no. But for all and all that's really helped with my cerebral palsy and, it kind of helped with all my balance and doing stuff that I... without even knowing, just going, and helping like balance there's movement, there's, like, also playing. It made me relationships I would've never had.

Cam Tradell [00:02:19] Yeah, that's interesting, so you found that as you were playing more and more, that the sport was actually helping you grow other, you know, physical attributes that you wouldn't have otherwise had?

Benny Sutton [00:02:31] Yep!

Cam Tradell [00:02:31] Yeah, that's great. And you're talking about the social, can you tell me a little bit about that. How does the social, do you remember early social interactions in sport?

Benny Sutton [00:02:39] My whole under-6s and under 7s teams were my school friends. And when we were in Under 6s, we lost every single game, except for one... And in under 7s, somehow, with that same team, we were undefeated a whole entire year, and I don't know how that happened, but it happened. And then we were in...., I was like 12, when I came into the Cerebral Palsy program and that changed my life forever, because when I brought that up until I went into Cerebral Palsy Alliance until I was about 7, and then I didn't really have that cerebral palsy, contacts centre or any friends, with the severity, so I couldn't really connect with anyone. So, but when I got there, it changed my whole life. I got to meet people from all parts - teachers, people in finance, people my age, so we got to talk about everything and now some of them are my team mates now. Most of them are my role models, even now being an older one in the program now, even the younger ones are my role models, and I think that if I can help you and that makes me so much better.

Cam Tradell [00:04:14] That's a great insight to the way that sports really embedded not just connections and friendships, but how to help support and grow people. And I'm wondering, you said your father was your first coach. Do you remember what made him a good coach for you?

Benny Sutton [00:04:29] He was patient. He didn't care if we did well, he was like even if you did a mistake he did not care. He knew that every time we were going to do something, we would get better and not to get frustrated. That's one of the main things, is I see coaches nowadays get so frustrated at kids going, "Oh my god, why can't you do this?" But I learnt from my dad and my mum that to be patient, and that they will get this eventually, it will take time, everything takes time and practice. If they want to get better, they will practice, so yeah.

Cam Tradell [00:05:14] So it's about creating that positive environment?

Benny Sutton [00:05:17] On field, I’m a very negative person, like to myself, I think I should be at this level at the highest level possible, and I should not make mistakes, because I'm representing my country and I should not do it, but that is the one mindset to have. But as a coach, I am the complete opposite. I'm going everything's fine, everything's positive... "Let's go", "let's do it again, don't be like me, be the best you can be".

Cam Tradell [00:05:51] I love that, Benny. And is it true, Benny, that your very first team you were involved in was more interested in holding hands than actually playing the sport?

Benny Sutton [00:05:59] Yes. So, my under six team we weren't really the best at football. We were more just all school friends, but we were all holding hands and that's where the patience from my dad, I applaud him for that. I would have been, what are you doing? why are you doing this? But he was like, Nah. But then he realised that, so he didn't put us together. Even so, we couldn’t hold hands. And I think that's where, when I went to Under 7s, that's why we did so well. I was patient and then we just went. We actually started to enjoy the team and went down, and we went home with our friends, like our closest friends, that we were holding hands with the year before you before we went "OK let's play now.”.

Cam Tradell [00:06:55] Clearly, that was a really positive experience for you because you stayed in the sport ever since. And you then have started to make representative teams. Can you tell us about when you first made the representative teams and what was the atmosphere? What was it like with your new coaches where you're coming into performance coaching? What was that like?

Benny Sutton [00:07:13] It was very interesting because I actually never had a proper, proper coach until I went into the reps’ teams. So, I always had my dad or schoolteacher or science teacher or whoever it was that was like, OK, let's do this. So, when I hit 12, I went into the New South Wales Cerebral Palsy program, but I didn't actually make the team until I was 17, so in 2010, where we went to Melbourne for the National Championship. And that's where the spirit of that helped me so much like just learning off. I had been with NSW players for five years, so I already knew them. But meeting the Victorians, the Western Australians, the South Australians, and everyone else turned out okay. That's where I need to be. And but the experience they gave me it wasn't all about football. It was about being a good person and like Football's a team sport. So how can I, how can I get from a team sport even into my work? How can I be a better person here and my work, and be a team player? And then in 2017... and in 2016, I got the call up for the national team and that's a whole different level. I thought NSW's camps were hard, and it went up a notch. So, in January 2017, I trained my butt off for like four weeks, and just went into the February camp and I was like "Oh my God!" "ok", apparently, I did well, which wasn't too bad, and then funnily enough, I got my first call up that year and I cried all the way home and then I told all my family. Mum actually organised a party without me knowing, like, at my house that even if I got dropped, she was like oh, everyone, I was like OK, so I went to that actually had 11 people from my family fly over to Argentina to watch me actually play. Which in CP Football we don't get many people. Now we're starting too, but in that time, that was unheard of. And like all the coaching staff loved it. I was like "oh my God, this is awesome" And then, yeah, but the levels of coaches now I have, so much better. So, we are allowed to go into Northwest Spirit, and we've been training with them for about three to four years. And having training with the Imperial Under 6 team and while all round helped us so much because we got faster and strong. And we have to react to it, and we thought that after I get behind them. So, we have to now even train harder.

Cam Tradell [00:11:00] So who were you playing for in Argentina the first time, and then who did you play against?

Benny Sutton [00:11:06] So we went to Argentina, we were playing for the Pararoos We played against the US, Ukraine, Portugal, Japan, Argentina, funny enough, and ... Northern Ireland.

Cam Tradell [00:11:29] Right! That's an incredible experience.

Benny Sutton [00:11:33] I would have never had gone to South America if it weren't for football.

Cam Tradell [00:11:37] Incredible. I also want to touch back on something you said before, and I think this is key and it's the impact that a coach can make if they make it more than about sport. I like what you said is that it wasn't just being about a good sportsperson, it's about being a good person. Can you tell me a little bit about what that means? What sort of things did you do to identify what you could do to be a better person?

Benny Sutton [00:12:01] I know its cliché, but it's treat the way you want to be treated. So, it was like, "OK if I say this to someone, do I want them to say it to me?" No. And how do I get the best out of my skill set to help the team, so at North Sydney, where I used to work, I basically went, OK, I'm very, I hate the shed being untidy and that was me. I was like OK, my job there, ok let's clean the shed. So maybe once every three weeks, I was like OK, this is my job, I can help the team if I can make someone's life a bit easier, I’ll do it. and that's where I kind of went, OK, like, I've done two and a half hours on Sunday, right? Anyway, clean the whole entire shed and then that make's someone else’s life better, and my life easier as well, so I can go bang, bang, bang, so everything works. And then someone else would do that for me and then we all do it for each other. And that the connection that I found at North Sydney, I always only ever had one job. Now I have two. But, at North Sydney, the culture there was so good, we all helped each other, and that's why we were all still so close with each other. Even if someone left, we would still contact them and invite them to everything that we would do.

Cam Tradell [00:13:46] That's a fantastic culture and I must admit, I've lived a little bit of it, and I'm interested in your coaching now, and I love the fact you say that you're a different coach than you are a player. I really like that is the fact that you are hard on yourself, but you want to create those positive environments for the for the new breed coming through. Can you tell us a little bit about what excites you about coaching the new breed? Who are they? What do you do for them?

Benny Sutton [00:14:12] So the new breed, I've actually tried to develop the Pararoos Development Centre, where basically the next generation to come through and take my spot and take all the spots of the current national team. But to have, basically because I didn't have that opportunity when I was younger and I was like, I want that. I want what I had, and I wanted to give it to them. And it’s all about, can I not Impact, but can I change something in them, to make them love to the sport? If I can make... it’s all about loving something, if you love something, you will continue to do it until you are 75 or however how old you are. But yeah, but as you know at North Sydney, we have a guy who's 75 and still playing because he loved the sport. I want that, I want to try and make them, the Under 10s go up and be him and play at 75. I want them playing some of the teams and they can play with me. But yeah, it’s all about just making sure one: They don't quit the sport or if they do, how can I help outside of that as well? How can I make sure that next time I don't make a mistake? For me, it's not everything, but it also impacts me. The way I make sure I've done my job correctly is at trials the next year, if everyone wants to come back then I’ve done my job. If one person doesn’t, I haven't done my job correctly.

Cam Tradell [00:16:14] Geez, you are hard on yourself, Benny.

Benny Sutton [00:16:16] I am. But you always have to be positive no matter what happens, even if they do the worst mistake of their life, put a positive spin on it. If they pass it across goal, and the other team intercepts and scores, then, that's fine. I'd say OK "what can you do different?" how can you do it differently? And then the next time, if they keep doing it, then you go OK, how can we do it differently? And then they'll think, they'll go "Oh I can play on the Goalkeeper, or I can play someone else" and you go, OK,

Cam Tradell [00:16:59] As long as they're learning, I guess, Benny, is that if the mistake is a learning opportunity, then it's not a lost opportunity. It sounds key and quarter to everything you do. The enjoyment factor must be high, too, like if you're putting the benchmark of everyone that's here this year needs to be here next year. You must really drive fun and engagement as being key drivers of your sessions.

Benny Sutton [00:17:22] Yeah. And like what I learnt from everyone I talked with and coached against and even played under was, it is all about fun. If it’s like I found that especially with my under 9 girls this year that I found the one game that they all loved - it was bullrush, they all loved bullrush, and I like perfect. I found a game, that I was like, if you do well lets go do bull rush then, and I'll tease it for like five minutes, and then they will all remember, they'd go "Ben, let’s play bull rush, let's play bull rush" and then I'm like OK play bull rush for five minutes, changes the whole day, and then they all switch on and focus and I can just go once I visit.

Cam Tradell [00:18:15] It's interesting because you've got a unique skill there where you're actually playing to their motivations, in your coaching, to the motivations of the athletes or the participants in your team to ensure that they're not just learning how to play the sport, they're not just learning how to be part of a team, they're also learning that they've got some say over what happens in your session. And I think that's great that buy in that you get is that a sort of strategy of yours?

Benny Sutton [00:18:43] Yes. Master strategy of mine. Because I find that one, even when you learn to play, everyone wanted too, and if I could, I would just want to play games the whole time. But as a player, I would be like "Can we play? because that was so much fun. And then now as a coach I can go, "OK let’s play", but then I can add some rules into it so it's kind of like you're learning more about learning and all of that cognitive learning and going, OK, can I have fun? But also, oh, okay, I'm doing this well, and then you point out what we did well, and then you point out that one thing that they didn't do well and then we go from there.

Cam Tradell [00:19:30] So creating constraints on, on what you what you're providing to people in a fun way, highlighting all the positives. And then let's work on the one thing that you want to get better at. Is that planned before the session? Or do you wait to see what's in front of you and then make decisions as you're coaching, which is real coaching right?

Benny Sutton [00:19:53] A bit of both. I try to plan what I'm going to do, but if that doesn't work, you always have to adapt. Even like the size of a session, if it’s too big and it’s too easy for them, you have to make it smaller but even if anything doesn't work, you cut them into a team and go Okay, I'll just change the roles off the top of my head and then that would be that.

Cam Tradell [00:20:22] Your adaptability there, I like that is the fact that you create the constraint based on what you're seeing, but you wait to see what you see from your players and what they can do, what they can't do and what they need to do. And then you adapt your session to get the best outcome from the players. And then you add in another layer, if we get all this work done, we can also play the game you want to play.

Benny Sutton [00:20:46] Yeah, but it also, everyone has different situations as well. Like I might have a bad day at work. And then I go to training and sometimes I don't want to be there. But it’s the same with kids, they might have a bad day at school, something might have happened at school. Something might have happened at home that we might not know about. And then you find out, and then you go "OK, let's make it more fun, let's make it more fun now, let’s make it easier," and they go OK, cool. And then if you have more than one session, you can go OK, let’s make that day harder. Let's make this one more fun.

Cam Tradell [00:21:30] Benny, I really like that because one that's how you intrinsically motivate people to love sport is that it becomes what it's designed to do. And that is, yes, be competitive. But two, fun to turn up and engage in, we've grabbed a lot to learn from you today Benny, that was fantastic. Really appreciate you joining us this afternoon. It's an incredible insight for us all to take away. Thanks so much for your time mate.

Benny Sutton [00:21:56] Thank you very much for having me.

Cam Tradell [00:22:00] Thank you for joining me today. If you'd like to find out more about coaching officiating or have any feedback or questions, please email us at workforce@sportaus.gov.au. My name is Cam Tradell and I look forward to you joining me for the next podcast in the coaching and officiating series.

Introduction Voice Over [00:00:03] This is a Sport Australia podcast production.

Cameron Tradell [00:00:07] Hello, and welcome to our coaching and officiating podcast series. My name is Cam Tradell, and I am the project lead for coaching officiating at Sport Australia. Over this series, we will look at what it takes to modernise Australia's coaching and officiating system. Each podcast, we will be joined by a special guest who will share experiences and practical tips on their topics.

Cameron Tradell [00:00:34] Today, I'm pleased to be joined by two individuals with a truly unique story to tell. Mel Perrine, who is a B2 classified, visually impaired para-alpine snow sport athlete, and Bobbi Kelly, who has been Mel's site guide since 2019 and a coach at her local club in Perisher. Mel and Bobbi have a great partnership that saw Mel win a gold and silver medal at the women's super-combined, visually impaired 2019 World Para Alpine Skiing Championships. Both are hoping Mel will make it to a fourth Winter Paralympic Games in Beijing in 2022. Mel and Bobbi welcome and thanks for joining us. I want to take you back to the beginning, Mel, I'm really keen to know where did it all start? Where did your love for racing come from and who got you in, who got you hooked and what were your motivations?

Mel Perrine [00:01:30] I guess my love of racing originally came from a development ski camp that I went on after I finished high school. I didn't want to go into uni straight away, and I just wanted to learn more about skiing. I think at that point in time, I was just a recreational athlete, so I went over to Canada for two months and I had a development coach over there who basically showed me the ropes in ski racing, gave me a bunch of technical and tactical information, and I just fell in love with the highly competitive nature of it. I've always been an athlete and it was just something that felt super natural to me. I love speed, I love competition and skiing and always been a massive part of my life all through my teen years. And this was just it was like an avenue to a way that I could continue exploring that. And I just loved it from the first from the first time I was in a racecourse, it was just awesome. I loved every second of it came back to Australia, eventually I went away to uni and then I think in 2009, after another year at the development camp, the same one, I was put in touch with the Australian head coach. He watched me ski and then invited me to join the national team.

Cameron Tradell [00:02:45] Do you remember the environment, do you remember what traits those coaches had back on the day, how they created the right environment for you?

Mel Perrine [00:02:52] I think the great thing about that development camp was it was everybody was a development athlete. So, the information about ski racing and about technical ability and what we needed to work on from ski tuning, boot, like everything was spoon fed to us in a really clear and direct way. Like we knew exactly what was going on, and also the coach was super supportive of our journeys and that the fact that some of us didn't know as much as each other and he was so approachable and really open to that sort of level of communication and then moving into the national team, that early coaching was a little bit different, but it was still recognised that I was a young athlete and so things were kind of given to me at kind of a little bit of a different level than a lot of the other athletes. But again, it was a massive supportive environment from the coaches that were really pushing me to learn that because they actually cared about my development as an athlete and the fact that they wanted to be to be safe and perform really well on a ski hill. And I think that really helped me stay in the sport as a young athlete.

Cameron Tradell [00:03:59] You've got a unique relationship, especially with Bobbi, who joins us as well. And Bobbi, you're a coach in your own right. You work as the guide for Mel on the slopes and in performance. How did you get into this role? What was your entry into being drawn to play in this role?

Bobbi Kelly [00:04:18] I grew up skiing in Perisher, so both my parents worked for the ski resort that allowed me and my siblings to grow up skiing and having fun along the mountain. That led me to start ski racing myself. I competed till I was around 19/20, and because I love the sport so much, I just started coaching and just at a local club and a good friend of mine, Christian Geiger, who was Mel's old guide and coach for the team, asked me a couple times to guide Mel. However, I wasn't really...  It wasn't the right timing for me because I was focusing so much on my coaching. But after the Pyeongchang Games, I decided it was a good time for me to start skiing with Mel and I've been skiing with Mel and coaching part time ever since.

Cameron Tradell [00:05:08] The relationship that you've got in the way that you compete together is quite unique. You seem in sync. You seem very, very connected. Your communication is incredible, and I guess it's got to be knowing the nature of the sport. I'm keen to understand potentially, Mel, where did that start from? How did you start to build the relationship with Bobbi so that you could start to get so in tune with each other and understand how best to work together?

Mel Perrine [00:05:34] I think Bobbi and I really got along quite well right from the start, actually.  Bobs was a little bit nervous the first time we met, the first time she skated in front of me to the point where I think I was back in in ski school as a 13-year-old. I know we quickly... it was really, it was a very open conversation, very quickly about what I could and couldn't do. And I think that it's kind of set the tone for our entire ski partnership where we're both incredibly open. We're both incredibly honest with each other all the time. And just outside of skiing, like, we found out pretty quickly that we were, you know, we're on the same wavelength with a lot of things, but I think our core values are very similar. So, we laugh a lot together. We have a lot of fun together off the mountain. You know, we're always chatting even when it's not ski season. So, I think the fact that we get on and that we share those core values and we set the tone right from the start that like open communication was going to be our thing. That pretty much kick started an awesome partnership, and we've just built on that the longer we spent together.

Cameron Tradell [00:06:45] Bobbi, from your perspective, the role that you play is guide. But is there much coaching that goes on between the two of you on how you can both work together? So, what's the feedback mechanism that you give to each other to optimise what you're doing? So, you can both play the role that you're playing so you can be as fast as you can in competition?

Bobbi Kelly [00:07:03] So obviously, we have the coach’s feedback, however we do talk a lot, obviously all the time to each other, we're always giving each other feedback, always learning off each other. Yeah, it's just constant chatting between each other, talking, trying to figure out things ourselves a lot of the time. Like, obviously, the coaches can't hear what we're saying all the time. So, it's just that constant feedback; trying what works and what doesn't work. And, we just started journaling, sometimes writing what works for us and what doesn't. So, we just keep it as consistent as possible.

Cameron Tradell [00:07:38] When you talk about the coaches that come over the top, you've got these problems that you're trying to solve and the problem can be, we want to learn how to communicate better, we want to learn and how we can get our technique in sync around certain areas. What are some of the safe environments that you create with other coaches to then problem solve with you? What does that look like and who tends to facilitate that?

Bobbi Kelly [00:08:01] I think it's a bit of both. We're very lucky and fortunate in the way in the sense that we have a very good relationship with our coaches where we're both very open with each other and sometimes the coaches will bring something up that we need to work on. Or sometimes it's the other way around, and we're happy to sometimes say, "Oh no we think differently”, and sometimes they may say the same. It's a lot of problem-solving like Mel said and it does come from not just the coaches and us. It can sometimes come from the athlete. We have family video sessions where we sit with the whole team, and we discuss each other's skiing and brainstorm together. So, it's a very like we're all learning together. We're trying to figure out something together, more so than just one side.

Cameron Tradell [00:08:47] How does that work for you, Mel? When you've got these people, all problem solving together with you and then you're optimising, is there a feedback loop when you do come up with a plan and then you go back to the group to say, we try these five things that we sort of agreed on didn't quite work for us, or these three things worked really well. Can you think of an example where that's come to life for you?

Mel Perrine [00:09:10] A lot of our problem solving is done not only in that the athlete-to-athlete kind of communications space, but also the athlete to coach communications space and a lot of the feedback loop that you just described in terms of communicating back as to what worked and what didn't, I think, happens differently for both of those groups. So, with our coaches, it's more of a formal after every run or after every two to three runs. But it's like, "listen, we try that stuff that we talked about in video, this worked and that didn't work". And then we also discuss the language that we use as well. So, you know, a coach might give a cue to me about a certain body position or what like what in skiing. A specific example was he wanted me to like round my shoulders out a bit more rather than opening up my chest constantly. And to me, that didn't make sense in my body. So, I was just like, OK, well, I think of it like this, and for me it’s like pulling like pulling my diaphragm up, which kind of creates a bit more tension through my core, and that's just how it made sense to my brain. And now the communication loop is he uses the same language that I communicated to him that he gives back to me to make sure that we're always on the same page with our language, which makes a really consistent level kind of communication board. And that's just like one specific example, but that applies in a lot of our conversations, whether it's tactical or technical, like our coaches are always interested in the language that Bobbi and I use when we talk to each other so that they can communicate. They can give us instruction that makes sense in that space that we've already created, so we tell them what works in our partnership and then they try and communicate on the same level. So that's a very formal and then informal, it's more informal with other athletes, other athletes who are just like, oh yeah, that thing worked really cool might work really well. Or, you know, we try that. And gosh, that run was totally crappy sort of thing. So that's a little bit less formal, but we can all see what everyone's working on, and it's the athletes because they're outside that super level communication kind of field that the coaches and us maintain they can sometimes see or throw a different word in or throw a different perspective in that changes the perceptive for everyone, which can, you know, help us overcome plateaus.

Cameron Tradell [00:11:37] The coach’s ability to adapt the way they communicate is key to this clearly, because you both are obviously very clear on what you communicate and how you communicate. I'm interested in Bobbi as the guy you're going down the hill. These are starting to go wrong. What happens in your mind with regards to something's? Not quite there? How do you maintain your level of clear communication? Because that's key, right? What are the processes you go through to maintain your, your head and mind space?

Bobbi Kelly [00:12:07] Describing guiding to people? It's almost like you're juggling a ball and then people are throwing all these questions. One person's asking you a mathematical question, one person's asking you a science question, and you have to keep juggling the balls as perfectly as possible, and you have to just stay focused and still do the job at hand. So, I originally was very overwhelmed by this because Mel's this amazing athlete who have so much respect for, I never really wanted to let her down or screw up. However, I think over this period of skiing with Mel, we figured out what works best for us as a team. And that's something that just, I guess, has come with time. Every guide and athlete will work differently. That's part of a journey as a team. I tend to take on information and I guess even say information a lot more simply than what Mel does. Mel takes on a lot of information, and she can describe things very elegantly, and I'm just really basic. So, I guess something that's really worked for us is Mel does a lot, she counts and she relays information when we inspect and then when we run to the courses and I kind of say, what's happening in front of me and kind of react to things very clear and as simply as possible, really. And that's something that I guess I've had to work on as well, for Mel, her senses are quite heightened. So that means when I speak, I have to try and keep the same tone. I don't want to raise my voice too loud if something's about like something that's happened, that was unexpected. I try and just keep my cool and just try and focus on the task at hand and say it as simply as possible. There's no real time to muck around, really, so I just try and stay focused.

Cameron Tradell [00:14:11] It's a unique skill in its own because you're also skiing yourself and you're giving that guide and then you've got, as you say, an incredible athlete in Mel who not much she can't do on the slopes. So, I'm interested in that in the do you do coaching independently of each other, like when you go and work on different things? And what does that look like? What would you work on Mel away from Bobbi? What are some of the things that you would do with other coaches without Bobbi being there? And part two of that is what's it like when you then come back together, and you've got some slightly new nuances or you got some differences? How do you integrate that into what you do?

Mel Perrine [00:14:49] So I think the fun thing is with being visually impaired is I could never go away from Bobbi. I need her. But we have started to figure out a way that we can actually do that because sometimes you just can't focus on your own skiing if you've got either someone in front of you or someone behind you. So, we do this thing when we're struggling with new drills or a concept that we're just not clicking into, we do this thing called leapfrogging. So sometimes I'll stay in one spot and Bobbi will ski away until the end of our comms system range. And then but then she’ll give me information about the slope in front of me and where she's going and point me exactly where the fall line is. And because she's giving me that information, I can then ski towards her with her guiding me vocally but not having her in front of me. And that will then allow me to work on whatever I'm working on and Bobbi to work whatever she's working on without having to worry about each other. But that's about as far away from each other as we ever get.

Cameron Tradell [00:15:46] Bobbi, if you're working on a new skill or you're working on things that are going to enhance you from a guide perspective. Do you do everything with Mel when you're trying out new things, or do you practise some things externally and then try and optimise?

Bobbi Kelly [00:15:59] I'm fortunate enough that I work at a ski resort, I'm always on the snow. I like I live on the snow, so I'm constantly testing out new things and skiing is whenever I can. I am lucky I do go out and just work on things when I can. However, if it's a training day and I just I need to work on something, and I’m not getting it, I sometimes I just have to go "Mel I'm sorry, can you just like, have a break? And I just need to figure it out these skis.  I just need a couple of runs just to get going or something” it’s definitely not, I'm not as young as what I used to be, and I just need a few runs to get me sorted

Cameron Tradell [00:16:39] As you move forward. What's the next piece for you? How do you keep striving to be better? Do you put plans in place, like you said about the process to getting better and optimising what you do? Or is it about "we just set our sights on a tournament to win or something to win"? Or have you got really clear goals on what it takes to be better?

Mel Perrine [00:16:59] I think the one thing that's really held true across my entire career is that the process has always been more important to me, and I'm so lucky that Bobbi also thinks that same sort of way. So, I strive to be the absolute best, most competent, most technically efficient skier that I can be, and I do as much as I possibly can, both on snow and off snow to just be a better skier. And I think my first guide... it was my first guide, Andrew said. He's like, you focus on the process and the results will take care of themselves. It's the process that matters. So, we've got all these big massive competitions coming up, but I'm super excited to get over to the northern hemisphere and train because I think by training, I'm going to get to, Bobbi and I are going to be a better partnership where I'm going to be a better skier. And that's just going to lead to a whole bunch of fun and some cool results like, that's what really matters to me.

Cameron Tradell [00:17:58] Bobbi, is it fair to say fun is the core of everything you're doing? Yes, competition winning is important, but realistically, it sounds like fun is a core component of this.

Bobbi Kelly [00:18:06] Absolutely. I honestly couldn't think of anything better. I'm skiing with my best friend in the mountains. You know, like every day is just so much fun. And I think Mel hit the nail on the head there with the process I think that's probably one of the things we're best at in terms of our communication. I would say they're really good at just trusting the process, and I know that sounds really lame when you hear it all the time, but we just focus on one run and then two runs. I'm just exactly like day one of training. That's all I'm thinking about, leading to the next to the northern hemisphere and just being extraordinary at the ordinary. I think we're both really good at doing this, chatting through it.

Cameron Tradell [00:18:51] I think that's key and core to everyone is the fact that having fun is really important. Understanding the process and the results will come. I think that that is a great philosophy to, to sort of hang true to. How important is it for you to maintain and keep the same communication that you've had that's got you to where you are today?

Mel Perrine [00:19:10] I think we feel such a great foundation that I don't want to change our communication style. I trust Bobbi with my life and to change any part of that, that relationship would be to, you know, undermine that trust. Bobs has ever since we started getting together, she's been awesome at just trying to make sure not only that I'm always safe, but they were always striving for a high level of performance. And I think both those things matter equally to me. So, I said, I don't really want to change our communication style, because it would change the trust level, and I already trust her with absolutely everything.

Cameron Tradell [00:19:48] Mel and Bobbi thank you so much for sharing your experiences with us this afternoon. Incredible insight and a lot to take away for coaches and athletes alike with regards to keeping open communication lines there for people to understand, to learn and to grow together. Thanks again. Thank you for joining me today. If you'd like to find out more about coaching officiating or have any feedback or questions, please email us at Workforce@sportaus.gov.au. My name is Cam Traddell and I look forward to you joining me for the next podcast in the coaching and officiating series.

Narrator [00:00:03] This is a Sport Australia podcast production.

Cam Tradell [00:00:08] Hello and welcome to our Coaching and Oficiating podcast series. My name is Cam Tradell and I'm the Project Lead for Coaching and Officiating at Sport Australia. Over this series. We will look at what it takes to modernise Australia's coaching and officiating system. Each podcast, we will be joined by a special guest who will share experiences and practical tips on their topics. We'd like to welcome Greg Chappell to be with us today, Greg provides a multifaceted view of sport. Having been a player at the international level, he worked as a selector for the National and Queensland teams, a member of the Australian Cricket Board, a coach. He's worked as a full time commentator. And he was also with the Indian Cricket team for two years as he filled in as the national coach. Welcome, Greg. Thanks very much for joining us.

Greg Chappell [00:01:00] Thanks, Cam. Nice to be with you.

Cam Tradell [00:01:01] Greg, you've had a lot of experience with regards to what coaching has looked like from the coach's point of view, but also from the players perspective and over the time, what have you seen in reflecting on all that, that the key attributes of of good coaching look like from your perspective?

Greg Chappell [00:01:18] Yeah, it's a very interesting question, because I obviously grew up in an era where there wasn't a great deal of organised coaching. We were lucky that my two brothers and I were lucky that our father was a very keen cricketer and keen sportsman generally, and he encouraged us to play sport. Cricket was always his favourite sport, so that was the dominant sport for us. But luckily, the way he introduced us to the game was very clever. There was a lot of intuitive stuff there. He understood the game very well and he understood coaching better than I think I realised at the time. The three of us all finished up playing for Australia. We all had very different styles and that was because Dad's early introduction was about what he wanted us to do, not how to do it. So he allowed us to develop our own style, and I think that was a very important part of it. The other really important point that I reflect on now, I didn't realise it at the time, but he encouraged us whenever we played cricket in the backyard or with our friends or down the beach or wherever it was, it was always to be played seriously. He wanted us to play with the hard ball from an early age, but he didn't give us any pads and gloves to play with. So the message behind it was always, if you learn to use the bat properly, you won't need pads and gloves. So it was a bit of tough love, if you like. There were a few wraps on the leg and a few wraps on the fingers. But we learnt that if I did miss it with the bat, then it wasn't going to hurt us. So that was important. It also made us watch the ball. He also had a family friend or friend of his who did some sort of organised coaching on a Sunday morning near, well not far from our home and so any of the kids in the neighbourhood or anywhere in Adelaide, for that matter, I mean, I remember kids catching the tram down from the eastern suburbs of Adelaide. We lived in Glenelg and come down to Glenelg and walk down to Mr Fuller's place where he had a couple of nets in his backyard and he would throw balls to the kids and basically teach the defensive aspects of the game. But the part of it that I remember most was that when Mr Fuller was finished with us, Dad would take us into the next net and he would throw balls to us randomly, but full tosses, long hops, half volleys and he taught us to score runs. He encouraged us to look to be scoring runs. And I'm forever grateful that I grew up in that environment because it really did influence my my thinking and my style from a very early age. Then when we got to the elite cricket levels, they were no team coaches, they were no club coaches. They were people who organise practise by the clock, know how long you batted balls and who batted. But no one was giving a great deal of instruction, most of the instruction or most of the learning came peer-to-peer. You know, we would talk amongst ourselves, we would watch what the other guys were doing and watch particularly what the better players were doing and the beauty of the game being a very much an amateur game in those days was that training was only twice a week. You came from work because everyone had a job and you were keen to get there. So there was a lot of energy and a lot of enthusiasm. But also you had the odd test player. You had a few shield players who were indisperesed around your training sessions. So you got to look at good players up close. And that's where the learning came from. And I'm just so grateful that with the environment in which I grew up.

Cam Tradell [00:05:19] Those communities of practise in that peer to peer learning. And it's something that is so powerful with regards to, you know, your peers understanding what your strengths and weaknesses are because they see you so often and play against you so often. And I guess that's the piece where a coach can play a crucial role in creating those environments now, learning from all those experiences from the past.

Greg Chappell [00:05:41] Yeah look, I think the other important part of it was that they were also batting, bowling against the same players. The lessons that you were getting were pertinent to that moment. It wasn't just somebody's experience from a day gone by or some somewhere else. It's much harder being a coach, having sort of gone from being a player and got involved in coaching. The games obviously evolved from very much a pastime in the first half of my career, it was a pastime. We had a job and we played Cricket on weekends and, you know, a few in between. You know if you got the Sheffield Shield level or Test cricket, obviously you went further than that, but it was very much a pastime. Then we went through the revolution of World Series Cricket and came out the other side and it was semi-professional. So it was starting to evolve into that professional game. And more coaches came into being. Bob Simpson was the first coach that was introduced to an Australian team. And that sort of came from the pressure that evolved as the game evolved into the semi professional stage, there was more responsibility, more pressure on the team captain, when you talk about an Australian team. So the decision was taken that a lot of that responsibility had to be taken off the captain. So team managers, team coaches, media advisers and all those sort of people started to come into being and and Bob Simpson was the first one as an Australian coach, and he came at a time when we had a young team and he did a lot of drilling. He did a lot of work ethic sort of stuff, really got the guys working a lot harder. And that was with a change that started to take the emphasis away from the peer to peer stuff and put an individual in charge of the learning. And I'm not sure that that's necessarily the ideal situation, no doubt that peer to peer stuff still goes on. But all of a sudden we had an individual and it doesn't matter who that individual is or was. All of a sudden, somebody became responsible for the information. The holder of the information, if you like, all the wisdom, and I think  the wheel got sort of turned on the side a little bit at that poin. There's some good aspects of that, but I think there are some lesser, less good aspects of it and we can go into that as we as we talk.

Cam Tradell [00:08:26] It's interesting because if we take that down to the next level and you talk about what's happening at the top and often community reflects what happens at the top, what would good community coaching look like? What would those environments look like at the community level? How would you see that optimising the coaches role in the community?

Greg Chappell [00:08:46] Yeah, it's such an important one. And this is it wasn't so much what happened at the elite level, that sort of took things off kilter, in my view, it was what happened at that community level and the club level is all of a sudden we decided we needed more coaches. And so the coach education came into being and then that grew very quickly. And there were some good aspects of that. But the emphasis of coaching became around technique. And from a batting point of view, it became about not getting out and from a bowling point of view, it became about not going for runs. And that's the wrong aspect, in my view, in the beauty of the education that I got, it was about scoring runs and taking wickets. And you learnt everything from that aspect, but I think what's happened over the last 40 years or so is that as we've got more coaches at that community level, I mean, we had our training sessions, were twice a week and they were generally in nets because that was the only efficient way you could get a group of however many people through a training session reasonably quickly and efficiently. But they were top up sessions. A lot of what we learnt, particularly as kids and in the formative years, was from our backyard cricket, our cricket down the park or the beach, which was totally run by the kids themselves. We had no adults, we had no coaches, no umpires. We umpired our games. We argued amongst ourselves. We decided what the rules were. We decided depending on the location in the backyard, obviously it was a much tighter environment. So you had automatic wicketkeepers and the trees were out and the house was out or whatever. And then down at the park, you maybe had a few more kids. So you had a few extra fielders, but you still have some trees that were part of the fielding team and so on. So you were learning in an environment that was very close to the game. You were making decisions in real time so that the development of the individual wasn't just about the technical aspects, it was about the mental aspects and the decision making. And what we know from history is that the best players are the best decision makers. They are the ones that are picking up most information and using it more efficiently and effectively than than the rest. It's not technically driven. I mean, if you want a good current example, you wouldn't necessarily coach someone to bat like Steve Smith from a technical point of view. But he knows how to make runs. You know, he he's learnt to to bat in an environment that was about run scoring. And so what I believe we need to be doing at the community level is teaching people the whole game. So creating environments that match the games. Cricket, possibly golf is the other sport that train in one environment and play in another. You know, we don't play in nets, we play in a field that's got spaces and the art of batting and the best batsmen have been the ones who've been able to hit the ball where the fielders aren't. And so if you're not learning in an environment that is teaching that, then you're only learning part of the game. And I think that the problem that I have seen, particularly once I got into the coaching role, was that nets can be good, but you've got to understand how to use nets. But it's not just a matter of bowling a never ending over or batting, you know, just batting for volume, the worst word I here in cricket these days. Where do you get the volume? It's not about volume. It's about the quality of the training and the quality of the learning environment. The coaches role, in my view, is to create a learning environment, not be didactic, not be the owner of all the wisdom, but be able to create the environment that imbues the education.

Cam Tradell [00:13:13] Incredibly insightful because context is key, taking that to it to another level. What are some of the key aspects that an official, an umpire can provide to assist at any level of the game?

Greg Chappell [00:13:27] Yeah, it's a really good question because the good umpires stand out. Generally, they're good human beings. They are the people that have got a little bit of an understanding that not everyone's perfect, perhaps no one's perfect and that people are going to make mistakes. Cricket is an emotional game or sport is an emotional activity. And sometimes emotions run over and people say things and and maybe do things or threaten things that may be not appropriate. And the best umpires have been the ones that have handled the whole environment the best. They generally were good decision makers. Some of the worst numbers were the ones who were so fixated on getting the decisions right that they the environment got out of hand. Whereas the better umpires sometimes make mistakes, umpires will always make mistakes. You were prepared as a player to accept a mistake from an umpire that you knew who was a good bloke and ran the game well, understood that they was going to be some emotion running over from time to time. Mel Johnson was one who stood out in my time. From an Australian point of view, Mel hadn't played first class cricket, but he played premier great cricket. He understood the game. He was a school teacher, so he understood young men, young people. And so he he could read the situation. Well, know Dickie Bird in England was another. Now the good umpire for the same reason. I mean, Dickie Bird had no right to be a good umpire. He was the most nervous, anxious individual that I ever met. But somehow he got his decisions right generally. But he also allowed the game to ebb and flow. But when something looked like it was going to get out of hand, he would step in. And the good umpires did that, they would just say to the captain "mate watch out this situation starting to get out of hand. You better handle it." They never let it go too far. And there was a little bit of give and take, you had a relationship with those umpires, they weren't the only two, they were other good ones around. But you actually had a relationship with the umpire as a player and as a captain. And it was really important. You didn't have to be the best of mates with the umpires. There had to be a bit of distance. But a good relationship between the captain and the umpire made a really big difference because all the umpire had to do was say, "Greg, this is a bit of an issue you better sort it out" and you knew tha he meant it, and you knew that if you wanted the relationship to continue, you had to handle it.  And so most things were handled on the field. I think what's happened since we've got match referees and third umpires, fourth umpires, DRS and all of that, the responsibility has been taken off the field. And I think that's made a huge difference, and you're not getting, I don't see the same relationships that existed before you took the responsibility off the field.

Cam Tradell [00:16:44] There's a lot to sort of unpack there because, I mean, those relationships become so important. The environments that they create with the coaches, the officials and the players all communicating well tend to be the the best environments to compete in any way.

Greg Chappell [00:17:00] Communication, you mentioned the word communication. That's key in any environment. You know, if you've got a standoff where you've got someone who's saying, look, that's not my responsibility or no, I've got to focus on this, I can't afford to distract myself by all that sort of stuff, then the environment is going to go downhill.

Cam Tradell [00:17:19] Fantastic Greg, thanks very, very much. We really appreciate it. There's a lot for us to think about and a lot for us to take away and I'm certain that a lot of community coaches will learn a lot from that. Thank you very, very much for your time today.

Greg Chappell [00:17:30] My pleasure, Cam. Nice to talk to you.

Cam Tradell [00:17:35] Thank you for joining me today, if you'd like to find out more about coaching and officiating or have any feedback or questions, please email us at workforce@sportaus.gov.au. My name is Cam Tradell and I look forward to you joining me for the next podcast in the coaching and officiating series.

Narrator [00:00:03] This is a Sport Australia podcast production.

Cam Tradell [00:00:07] Hello and welcome to our Coaching and Officiating podcast series. My name is Cam Tradell and I’m the Project Lead for Coaching and Officiating at Sport Australia. Over this series, we will look at what it takes to modernise Australia's coaching and officiating system. Each podcast, we will be joined by a special guest who will share experiences and practical tips on their topics.

Cam Tradell [00:00:32] Today, we're fortunate to be joined by Lauren Jackson, former Australian Opals basketball legend, WNBA/ WNBL player, Naismith Hall of Fame member, Sport Australia Hall of Fame Board Member and who is currently the head of Women's Basketball and Girls Strategy at Basketball Australia. Lauren made her debut for Australia at the Sydney 2000 Olympics and has really done it all in basketball from playing at the elite level in Australia and overseas, to coaching the Albury Bandits women's team. Lauren, welcome to the podcast. I'll jump straight into our first question. So growing up, your mum was one of your coaches and clearly very influential to what happened. Do you remember any other coaches in those years as you were coming through, or even not coaches someone else who sort of set to the side that was influential to you?

Lauren Jackson [00:01:25] You know, I definitely do. There was a guy named Eric Kivi who was a coach from Wollongong. And for me, I really thought his demeanour and his manner in the way that he treated us and he was so respectful and just a really caring guy, you know, I loved him. He was one of my favourite coaches, you know, and I think that, it’s funny because it's sort of the other end of the spectrum. Tom Maher was one of my other favourite coaches of all time, and he was completely the opposite. There was nothing really gentle about him. So I kind of responded to, there was a quality in these coaches and I think it might have been that kindness piece because Tom underneath it all was kind and he wanted the best for his athletes. But Eric, especially as a junior, I think I was probably 14 the first time I played under him, I just remember this really gentleness about him and the way that he spoke and this calmness which I didn't have, like I was not a calm kid, but when other people are calm, that made me feel better. So he and my mum, my mum had that trait as well. Nothing really rattled her ever. And they weren't nasty. They didn't make us do completely outrageous things as youngsters. Like I had coaches having us do 50 push-ups before every training session and like just random stuff. You know, when you kids even at state level, I just I think that there's sort of a really fine line between ensuring that those kids are happy and safe and having fun and also able to perform like at the level you need them to perform at. And that's to me, that's probably the biggest challenge, particularly with state coaches and things like that, you know. So state under 16's and under 18's, like, it's really making sure that those kids are happy and they're enjoying their experience because otherwise they're going to drop out. You know, they won't continue on, which is what unfortunately what happened to alot of my friends.

Cam Tradell [00:03:26] You talked about his kindness and so on. Can you take us to what would one of his sessions look like? So what would the environment be like at one of his sessions? So you talk about him as a person. How did that work in the team environment? How did that sort of manifest itself?

Lauren Jackson [00:03:40] To be truthfully honest? I really don't remember like the on court stuff. I remember levels of accountability. And this is what my mum had as well, was as much as it was an environment where we felt safe, where we felt comfortable and everything like that, there was accountability like you had to, you know, they'll be kind and they'll be everything that you need them to be. But when you step on the basketball court, you go hard and give it everything you've got. And it's funny because my Hall of Fame thing, the other couple of weeks ago, one of my best friends from Albury was over here and she's now an under 14 coach of her daughter. But she was also my team mate when my mum was coaching. So we were watching all of these old basketball games from, you know, like under 12 state championships and Brodie, she said something about mum being tough and it's tough. She was tough. Like she was definitely tough coach. She expected the best from her girls. But as soon as that game was over, there wasn't that real anger. You know, if we lost, it was more about nurturing, like knowing that we felt that loss just as deeply as what the coach did, or as anybody else did. And I think that's it's a really fine line to juggle, because I think a lot of people who haven't played at any level of sport who come into sport, it's not knowing how to deal with those moments, like after a hard loss, or after big win. And you think you're on cloud nine and then you've got to back up two or three hours later at community sport and you get thumped, you know, like it's it's a really fine line to juggle kids. And, yeah, the coaches that I had, particularly in juniors, a lot of them knew how to do that and a lot of them didn't. And the ones that knew how to stuck with me.

Cam Tradell [00:05:26] So you're looking to coach your own kids as they come through. What sort of coach will you be like? We've got this image of what we are and what we want to say. What attributes do you think that you will bring to that community level, knowing that you've played at that very, very highest level for a long time? What are the ways that you will sort of distil that to the community game, do you think?

Lauren Jackson [00:05:44] I think that just giving the kids the opportunity to get out on the court and play their hearts out, but also in an environment where they're not going to get shouted at, they're not they're going to feel safe and feel like they're involved in something bigger than themselves. So, you know, I think that that calmness thing is a really big piece. I think a lot of kids deal with a lot of stuff at home, at school, the basketball court. That environment needs to be a place where they feel safe, where they feel like they can be themselves, where they feel like they've got team-mates who've got their back. They've got friends. There's adults that care about them. And I think that,that's what I want to be able to bring, you know, performance and outcomes is so important. Of course they are, everybody, you know, that otherwise we wouldn't play sport, right? But at that level, when kids are young, it is about ensuring that they're able to develop in an environment that is safe. And that to me, is probably the biggest thing about community basketball. Not to say, I'll have expectations, if we're training hard, you're going to go out there and play hard. But it's first and foremost, they've got to enjoy it. They've got to have fun and they've got to stay in the game. We've got to give them that pathway.

Cam Tradell [00:06:57] I like what you're saying with regards to you create the structure, but off the back of the structure, there's always mistakes. There's always opportunities. There's things for people to then make those instinctive decisions. I kind of like the fact that as well as you drill, there's always a Plan B because it becomes available, because that's what happens, because sports messy.

Lauren Jackson [00:07:14] It really is. Now, that's so true. So I think it's how you, I guess, structure your practises to make sure that you're drilling the the things that you can't control, you know, blocking out, rebounding, shooting, back cuts, setting screens, pick and rolls like you can't anticipate what defence is going to be played, or if they're going to be defensive players at all. You know, you don't know. So I think that it really does come down to the things that you implement in practise. And I guess even just highlighting a few different aspects of the game that you want the kids to work on. And they can do it at home like a lot of this stuff, they can pick up a ball in the backyard, which is how I grew up playing was in my backyard or a little kid down the road here is like out the front dribbling ball every single day. He's got a ball in his hand. And I think if you're doing that, you've got a ball in your hand, you just toss up shots. You naturally just going and rebounding and seeing where the ball's going to fall, you know. So there's a lot of I think just being able to have a ball in your hands and just doing stuff with it, it gives you an idea of what game play is going to be like. And a lot of that just comes from literally just having a ball in your hands.

Cam Tradell [00:08:23] Some of the creativity that comes from kids is remarkable to watch. Did that ever come into play like did you ever, the shots that you were making at the top? Were you ever making those shots as a kid?

Lauren Jackson [00:08:33] Yeah, absolutely. You know, my mum gave me a drill, one drill when I was a kid, you know, and I and she's always said to me, just get your mikan right, mikan, reverse mikan and underneath the basket and to the day I retired, I was doing that every single day before every single game, before every single practise, because it ensured like it ensured that I just got my touch. I just got my rhythm. And it's sometimes that's all it takes is just getting in your rhythm, you know. So I think some of these drills and look, I was so fortunate to have my mum who who had played at that level, and I guess she's got a basketball brain. So I think, you know, I think that stuff comes pretty naturally to us. But I would say that, you know, having to sort of go to drill something that can centre a child before a game, just bring their focus to the basketball game that is critical, you know, and that and it's different for all kids, you know. So it is it is a bit like education. It's literally finding out what the motivation is, how you can centre a kid, how can focus them. It might be one word. For me, it was having the ball in my hand, just doing mikan drill under the ring. So, yeah, it was that's yes, definitely. I had that one drill that one thing in the backyard.

Cam Tradell [00:09:43] I wanted to know if  that move that was you go to, was that your pet play? That's what you went to first?.

Lauren Jackson [00:09:50] No, it wasn't a pet play. It was it was like so if I got a rebound underneath the basket, which happened a lot, right? I just would go up and finish. So it was more of a finishing play. So if you're underneath the basket where I was most of my career, that was what I would go to. And getting that feel for the basketball before a game, it gives you the confidence, I guess, that, your not going to tank it. And then also it was a focus thing, right? It snapped me into gear. Like as soon as I started doing mikan, I knew that, you know, I was about to be either competing and training or in a game. And then as I got older, it just became a flow thing. It was just getting getting into my flow, just refocusing and resetting and also to with my injuries and things like that. Often my body was, you know, not great. And I had to sort of find a way to, I guess, just feel good. And that made me feel good. You know, I think my go to is like a three pointer, like at the end of a clock. But the thing is, they become you go to because you do them so much and drilling is just so important. And learning that routine, especially from a really young age, becomes so important later in your career.

Cam Tradell [00:10:55] You said propping up a three pointer. Is that out of the fact that you wouldn't do it in the middle of a quarter? However, you can do it right at the end on the crux, because if you hit, its gold, if you miss, no one's really expecting you to hit it, if it's right on the buzzer?

Lauren Jackson [00:11:10] Look, I you know, it's same with mikan and I sort of had a bit of a shooting routine and I would shoot, again this was towards the end of my career when I was older. I couldn't do a lot of the five on five training stuff and the pounding so much but I would shoot I get up two hundred, three hundred shots a day and the majority of them were three's or jumpers or, you know, just because that's all I could do. So all I if all I could do physically was shoot, I was going to shoot as much as I could. And it turned out I became a much better shooter when I got a lot older than I was when I was younger. But mum was really incredible when I was younger, because I do remember her saying to me, if you can make it three, you'll go as far as you can in the sport because big people don't shoot outside the paint. That's why I think my career went in the direction it did, was because I had those skills and my mum was the one that encouraged me to learn sort of guard skills as a big. So I was really lucky that I had just her guidance and her support. And look, I fought her every step of the way as a kid. I really did. She'd be like, go out and shoot you shots and then say, no, no way, get off my back. Don't talk to me about basketball like I was a hard kid to to be around. But some of the lessons that she gave me have stuck with me for the rest of my life.

Cam Tradell [00:12:28] Do you remember your coaches or what they encouraged you or how they encouraged you when you're growing up on those moves, you are a finisher, you get the ball, your job is to get that ball in that hole any way that you can. Do you remember the trial and error around working out the different ways of doing that?

Lauren Jackson [00:12:45] Honestly, I was missing out on basketball teams up until I was 13 years old. And then at 13, I got picked on Australian Junior Camp. I turned 14 at the camp and then I was on the pathway. I was within a year or two, I was in the national squad, but up until thirteen I was missing out on, I missed out on a Riverina team, you know, like that. It didn't come naturally that finishing off. And I did overthink things and I was anxious about everything, but it was the way that I dealt with that. And I played a lot better with my mother as coach because I felt safe underneath her. She was someone, even though she was tough, she brought out the best in me. So I would say that it does take time. And that's why with kids, you can't be hard on them because this is where they develop. This is where they get to that point where, you know, when they become thirteen or fourteen or fifteen, things start to click in. If they've been doing the work, regardless of whether they're making the plays at the end of the game, making teams or whatever, if they've been doing the work, this is when that stuff starts to really, you see it happen, you see it evolve.

Cam Tradell [00:13:46] So even in maturation, if you're looking at the maturation rights of kids as they come through systems or they come through just the normal growth spurt, those ones that have got those micro skills as they get into maturation, when everyone else catches up, they tend to be the ones that thrive because they're not reliant on their speed, their power from a young age where they dominate, therefore they don't need those micro skills. And then when they get there, they can then thrive because they've got now the size, the speed, the power or just the physical capability, along with those micro skills as well, which really help the game.

Lauren Jackson [00:14:20] Like I wasn't even the tallest on our team here in Albury up until I was probably twelve, I reckon. I had team-mates who now come up to my below my boob, you know, and they were taller than me when we were ten, eleven, you know. So it's kids they mature differently. So being able to give them a more complete skill set from a young age and having them do all the different things, not sort of putting them into a box is really helpful.

Cam Tradell [00:14:47] Thank you so much for sharing some incredible insights with us today. Lauren, really appreciate the insight into creating a positive, safe, learning environment for participants at the entry level and what it can mean to not just high performance sport, but also how it can help grow people through their lives has been incredible. Thanks very much.

Narrator [00:15:11] Thank you for joining me today, if you'd like to find out more about coaching and officiating or have any feedback or questions, please email us at workforce@sportaus.gov.au. My name is Cam Tradell and I look forward to you joining me for the next podcast in the Coaching and Officiating series.